[jeffbee]

I don’t think this can be ignored. The bulk of ebike injuries to children are coming from throttle-having class 2 bikes and in my view these should simply be outlawed. I’ve seen people crash then who clearly thought they were stopping, but who were holding the throttle. They were riding a motorcycle without motorcycle training. Torque-assist pedal systems are perfectly intuitive to anyone who knows how to ride a regular bike. The power isn’t the problem, it’s the human interface.

[dghlsakjg]

Unlike a motorcycle, if you engage the brake on an ebike, the motor is completely disabled in every model I’ve ever seen.

You can hold the throttle wide open, and it won’t matter if any amount of brake is applied.

E-bikes just aren’t that dangerous, especially compared to a full power motor vehicle. I suspect that the bulk of injuries to children on e-bikes are happening in throttle models because those are cheaper models. You don’t buy your kid a $5k mid drive ebike when you can get a $1k rear drive one. Mid drives are physically unable to have throttle, whereas rear drive bikes almost universally have them.

If you are truly interested in saving children from injuries, the best thing we could do is put speed and power limits on cars. Speeding cars maim, kill, and injure several orders of magnitude more children than e-bikes.

[jeffbee]

Rad brand bikes with hydraulic brakes do not integrate the brake lever with the motor controller. Even on the ones you mention, that integrate the brake and motor controller, it’s still possible to come to a stop, release the brake lever, and then take off unintentionally into cross traffic because you were holding the throttle open the entire time. It’s a bad interface.

Total agreement on the other part but the injuries I’m hearing about have been kids riding their class-2 e-bikes into fixed objects, not crashing with cars.

[dghlsakjg]

Huh. I wonder if this was an early model thing. My 2020 Rad has a throttle disconnect on both brakes and the rad parts and instructions for those parts include the brake sensor. The brake handle sensor on mine also operates a brake light. On the mechanical disc brake rad that I have they even go so far as to disable the brake lever adjustment by putting a warning sticker over it to ensure that you don’t adjust it out of range of the limit switch.

https://support.radpowerbikes.com/hc/en-us/articles/44061799...

[dicriseg]

The newer Rad bikes have hydraulic brakes - the older ones (like my City 3) had cable brakes with the integrated motor cutoff.

I upgraded to hydraulic brakes and wanted to keep the motor cutoff - it was hard to find levers with the integrated switch. I ended up with a kit using XOD brakes, which have the integrated cutoff and are otherwise just fine. I did, however, toss their included brake pads after a bit of riding and replaced them with Tektro P20.11 metal/ceramic pads, and those made a huge difference. That and bleeding the brakes properly.

[DANmode]

> you were holding the throttle open the entire time

Imagine the equivalent argument for cars.

Are you, and this argument, the reason so many newer and/or electric vehicles don't have "idle creep"?

[gnicholas]

> E-bikes just aren’t that dangerous, especially compared to a full power motor vehicle.

Sure, but we don’t let children drive full power motor vehicles (except older teenagers after passing a test, and obtaining liability insurance).

[dghlsakjg]

And yet, full power motor vehicles kill thousands of children, while e-bikes kill single digit numbers of children.

If your argument is “somebody think of the children” then you have to consider that any child in the US is far, far, far more likely to be maimed or killed by a car while on their bike, then by their bike while on the bike.

[gnicholas]

Of course motor vehicles kill more children — there are orders of magnitude more of them. No one is crying "think of the children". We are just discussing whether it is wise for children to use these vehicles, which types are more/less safe for children, etc. Injury comparisons with motor vehicles they cannot legally drive, and which are in much, much greater supply, are simply not relevant. Show me a stat that looks at deaths per million miles driven, and I'm all ears.

[dghlsakjg]

My original comment was in response to a suggestion of banning an entire category of already regulated e-bikes purely for the sake of children, hence the "somebody think of the children"

If we are going to ban a category of vehicle for the sake of children based on injuries to children, then the logical vehicle to ban is the one that isn’t already speed and power limited.

My position is that it doesn’t matter if the kid is driving cars or not, if large, multi ton, unlimited speed, unlimited power vehicles (cars) are what is killing kids by the thousands, then why are we suggesting banning something which just isn’t as dangerous in an absolute sense.

If you want to compare motor vehicles to bicycles, then let’s add in trains, planes and ferries. And why miles driven and not time spent traveling. There’s a million ways to slice this, but there is no getting around the fact that if your kid dies in a vehicle accident, it’s almost always going to be a car.

By those measures we should get rid of bikes AND cars and stick to public transportation options.

I already think that e-bikes are over-regulated so I push back hard on reactive arguments like the GP. To ride legally I have to limit myself to 2/3 HP (500 watts) regardless of vehicle and rider weight, go no faster than 32kph, ride on road lanes where the other vehicles travel at 2x-3x my speed, wear PPE, have government approved lighting and reflectors, etc.

These things are already massively regulated in ways that limit their actual utility without necessarily helping safety. We don’t need to ban them outright because parents allow their children to do stupid shit on them, or adults are riding them without the proper skills. We don't suggest banning things like downhill mountain bikes even though children ride them, and they are far more dangerous to use as intended than e-bikes.

[jeffbee]

> purely for the sake of children.

That's not what I said. I think e-bikes with throttles are too dangerous to be on the market for any buyer. It is a bad, dangerous human-machine interface. There is a reason that the big e-bike brands do not offer them. Yamaha doesn't. Specialized doesn't. Trek doesn't. It is a proper use of consumer safety regulatory powers to set requirements for the controls on a dangerous machine. Without them, you just get a race to the bottom.

[CubsFan1060]

I don't think your statement about mid drives is correct.

There are some (a small amount) that support throttle. For example: https://bafangusadirect.com/products/bafang-1000w-bbshd-mid-...

[dghlsakjg]

True. There are a few models of hardware that allow it with a special front freewheel attachment, but generally speaking mid drive bikes are 1. Vastly More expensive 2. Almost never have a throttle only mode.

[acover]

Another solution: use an age limit rather than ban. Motorcycles are dangerous but I'm still allowed to use them.

[jeffbee]

The person I saw crash the ebike was a full grown adult woman. She needed training, not more years of life.

[acover]

Training doesn't make bikes safe, especially when driving near cars.

[thrown1212]

It makes them safer, including when driving near cars. Lobby for no training if you want but don’t pretend like it doesn’t help.

[acover]

Do you have evidence it helps? What course?

Obviously more training can help. For example it would be useful to practice riding in the rain, ice, and wet leaves. But at what point does more training not help? When will you be safe?

Riding a bike next to cars is inherently unsafe. When a car hits you, you are ducked. There's a limit to how vigilant you can be and most riders accept it's a when and not an if.

Note motorcycles have mandatory training but still have 10x the death rate.

[nickthegreek]

Motorcycles do not have mandatory training in Ohio. Just a written test and quick obstacle course. Temp permit is just a written test.

[readingistuff]

You also need a higher quality, impact rated helmet. I'm sure plenty of folks buy am expensive bike and the cheapest helmet.

[analog31]

This could be a new market. Presently, there's no motorsport rated bike helmet. You can buy a motorcycle helmet, but it's a heavy, cumbersome beast. Or a bike helmet that comes with virtually no useful rating system except for the Virginia Tech rating program.

[mtmail]

https://www.helmet.beam.vt.edu/bicycle-helmet-ratings.html

Freeride/Enduro/Downhill helmets exist (https://mountainbikeguys.com/downhill-helmet/) but nobody has come up with a rating yet afaik. I own one, and it probably saved my life at least once, but can understand how nobody wants to wear one outside a downhill bike park.

[anotherboffin]

NTA 8776 spec-rated helmets are built to withstand more forces than “regular” bike helmets. IIRC they are required in certain EU countries when riding an S-Pedelec (45 km/h limit pedal assist e-bike)

[rsynnott]

> The bulk of ebike injuries to children are coming from throttle-having class 2 bikes and in my view these should simply be outlawed

Huh, I always thought that virtually everywhere treated these the same as motorbikes (ie you need a license, insurance etc).

[jeffbee]

I've never heard of any place that required a license for any of the 3 formal electric bike classifications. If you need a motorcycle license that is because the thing you intend to ride is, in fact, a motorcycle.

The bike featured in the article, a BESV PSA1, is considered a "class 1" machine under the most common framework. It has a low-power motor, pedal assist, and no throttle. I am not aware of any place that requires licenses or insurance for such a bike.

[rsynnott]

Oh, yep, I was talking about bikes with throttles. The bike in the article should be fine basically everywhere.

[DANmode]

You want to take away people's e-bikes because...there exists a class of people so poorly coordinated that they presumably can't operate any vehicle safely 100% of the time?

[ComplexSystems]

That's a huge strawman. Nobody's saying get rid of them, but if they're as dangerous as motorcycles then they should be regulated similarly.

[DANmode]

> throttle-having class 2 bikes and in my view these should simply be outlawed.

One of us is misunderstanding the GGP.