Some day an honest conversation about how in our current internet landscape boys learn about sex through consuming hardcore pornography before they even kiss someone and whether that's something we want as a society needs to happen.
Yup. Reasonable, and perhaps even required. Similar to sex itself, aside from "abstinence only" positions on porn, there's very little open or fact-driven discussion about it.
> In college, I was with a group of white men and the topic of dating came up. One of them mentioned he wouldn’t date a black woman. To my shock, the rest of the group agreed with him. We say that nobody is entitled to a relationship with someone else, but I was still disgusted. Are they entitled to have this preference, when it comes to something as personal as dating and sex?
What the Hell is this? Of course they're "entitled" to their own bodies. What the Hell does she think, that she should be able to force them to have sex with her just because they're White and she's Black? She's a goddamned incel, treating others like props for her gratification.
Plus, since this apparently needs to be said, defending a rapist makes you a horrible person. Splitting hairs about what is and isn't rape is defending a rapist.
Yeah, I think I'll have regularly scheduled sex with my sla—wait, what? Thomas Jefferson isn't around in this modern world of dating, sex, and pornography. Besides, the book and the article are largely about sex.
The blog author doesn't actually make it clear if the line
> You are not entitled to sex with anyone, but people can have preferences that are problematic.
is spoken from their perspective or the book author's perspective. It's not a given that they agree with that sentiment. So it might be that the blog author briefly entertained their question of entitlement as a consideration before arriving at the conclusion quoted above, or they still favor it.
I think it's fair to say that for this book dating implies having sex, since it's peak intimacy. The title starts with "The Right to Sex" and the article mentions sex a lot.
Keep pulling that thread, you are very close to discovering something about yourself worth working on! You may not want to figure it out in public though.
No you aren’t, you are taking a stance against someone being shocked / disgusted at hearing 4 white men say they would never date a Black woman.
Similarly, I did not say and am not saying you are incompetent, I’m saying you are intentionally reading it wrong because the the implication conflicts with something you believe.
> No you aren’t, you are taking a stance against someone being shocked / disgusted at hearing 4 white men say they would never date a Black woman.
Parent isn't taking issue with the blog author being disgusted but rather the question the author raises.
I'll just copy what I said for your second sentence.
The blog author doesn't actually make it clear if the line
> You are not entitled to sex with anyone, but people can have preferences that are problematic.
is spoken from their perspective or the book author's perspective. It's not a given that they agree with that sentiment. So it might be that the blog author briefly entertained their question of entitlement as a consideration before arriving at the conclusion quoted above, or they still favor it.
Parent probably has biases that led them to interpret it how they did, but everyone has biases and parent hasn't replied to me yet, so I'm not sure if they intentionally reading it that way.
I often wonder who the audience is for subjects like this. One where someone essentially is what I’d consider a shit stirrer. I’m referencing the articles by Amia - not the summarizations here.
Part of me thinks it’s maybe interesting to bring up to people who have a genuine openness and are unaware of such subjects. But then it feels like to even read a collection of said articles, you must be a bit in the know about these subjects already if not a complete nerd about them.
I’ve seen this type of “I’m just asking questions” talk in many places and it does feel disingenuous almost exclusively. It’s quite rare to see a completely balanced take where they have no idea what the correct solution is. It looks like in this collection, Amia does give their own opinions even though they say at times they don’t have any idea what is best. It rubs that it’s disingenuous.
The problem is that I’d like to send such things along to people I know to get them more informed about various subjects but when there’s a slant as evident here - I never want to. So annoying that everyone has to shove their opinion into everything even when they act like they’re not. Just own it.
I think people should assume that authors don't provide balanced takes and read critically, but that might be asking too much. I don't really see the "I'm just asking questions" aspect. Do you have any examples?
I guess some people are uncomfortable with the issues raised in the article. Alternative explanation: some users are trigger-happy and flag an article based on the headline before they have a chance to read it. ~Its un-flagged by now~, and I vouched too BTW...
Its a good article and a balanced discussion about feminism would be very nice to have here...
Yes and if you'd continued to read the article, you would have noticed that this situation is used as an example about the problematic aspects of sexuality in our society -- its a segue to an argument, not the argument itself.
> You are not entitled to sex with anyone, but people can have preferences that are problematic
You rather took this one line out of context and interpreted in the worst possible way.
You are missing the point: saying that some preferences are problematic while others are not by itself creates an unfair double standard, even if you pay lip-service to the idea of individual right to consent. When a man rejects a woman because she's obese, that's problematic. When a woman rejects a man because he's short, that's not problematic.
I also find it sexist that both examples of racial preferences involve men, when it's well-established that women have stronger racial preferences than men, for example, white women prefer white men over Asian men (the least desirable group of men) by a much larger margin than white men prefer white women over Black women (the least desirable group of women). You could probably do the Grindr experiment on Tinder and find that the white man has an easier matching with women than the Asian man (especially if "Asian" means "Indian man" and not "K-pop idol dreamboat").
It's also strange to focus on men, when women are the pickier gender, especially when it comes to sex but to lesser extent also when it comes to dating. Even the undesirable black woman probably has an easier time hooking up than most white men.
Of course, it all makes sense when you realize that most modern-day feminists are only interested in pointing out the “problematic” behavior of men and how it impacts women, and never the other way around.
Finally, you phrased it as “THE problematic aspects of sexuality in our society” but the crux is that defining WHICH aspects are problematic is itself subjective and political. In Western society feminism dominates the institutions, so we get the result that "men rejecting black women" is problematic and "women rejecting Asian men" is not problematic. Of course, this isn't at all objective.
The double standards are real, and I say that as someone who is quite leftist (as vague of a term as it is, I think the general meaning is understood). The social justice warriors overshot in terms of equality. The inequal treatment of domestic violence in the US is also a big issue. Not that any domestic violence should be tolerated, but men are often abused and powerless to report it.
That is dubious but people are calling it out and everything else seems not egregious, so it seems better to not flag it and let the discussion carry on.
Nevermind, seems like I suffered from the same misunderstanding. I even read the next part but I forgot.
Okay I'm half joking, but this crowd of people is simply incapable of having such discussions without the thread turning into a pile of garbage very quickly because of a no-no word in the title. (Not talking about the word sex, but feminism.)
I love having such discussions, but it's not happening here for my own sanity.
The blog author doesn't actually make it clear if the line
> You are not entitled to sex with anyone, but people can have preferences that are problematic.
is spoken from their perspective or the book author's perspective. It's not a given that they agree with that sentiment. So it might be that the blog author briefly entertained their question of entitlement as a consideration before arriving at the conclusion quoted above, or they still favor it.
What the fuck, I was totally caught off guard by the comments in this post.
There's the usual torturing of definitions of word that pisses me off on HN (like when someone tried to convince people that flying is like running except you don't touch the ground) but in this thread there are weird accusations of call to rape based on the worst interpretation possible of an excerpt of the article.
It kinda put into perspective (and in a negative light) all the other posts that deals with philosophy or social issues.
> The only torturing of definitions is when the author insists that certain people not wanting to have sex with her is problematic.
Considering the article author is named Armand Halbert and is not a she I am pretty sure the biases you are showing are clouding your judgement.
The author doesn't say "not wanting to have sex with me is problematic", they say "not wanting to date someone based on their ethnicity is a political stance and it's problematic if it's the only factor in that decision". Granted the choice of words ("Are they entitled to have this preference") is poor but the whole sentence "Are they entitled to have this preference, when it comes to something as personal as dating and sex?" means "should something as personal as dating and sex be decided based on a political stance? ", the political stance being here "I don't date black people out of principle".
ELI5: it's problematic as a whole, for the community and society, when people decide not to mix, to mingle based on ethnicity.
How you arrive at the conclusion the author is promoting rape is beyond me.
For the posterity, this is the passage from the submission :
> In college, I was with a group of white men and the topic of dating came up. One of them mentioned he wouldn’t date a black woman. To my shock, the rest of the group agreed with him. We say that nobody is entitled to a relationship with someone else, but I was still disgusted. Are they entitled to have this preference, when it comes to something as personal as dating and sex?
The author explores this tension in “The Right to Sex”. You are not entitled to sex with anyone, but people can have preferences that are problematic. To the author, there is a political dimension to what we desire. She cites an example of the Grindr short videos, called “What the Flip?”. In it, a beautiful white and asian man swap profiles. The white man has scores of lovers beckoning to him, the asian man comparatively few, and those he does match with send racist messages. To the author, this video illustrates the contradiction between the principle of consent and the principle of equity:
> > the question, then, is how to dwell in the ambivalent place where we acknowledge that no one is obligated to desire anyone else, that no one has a right to be desired, but also that who is desired and who isn’t is a political question.
And this is the relevant (I think) passage of the author (Amia Srinivasan) of the essay being discussed in submitted blog post:
> In her shrewd essay ‘Men Explain Lolita to Me’, Rebecca Solnit reminds us that ‘you don’t get to have sex with someone unless they want to have sex with you,’ just as ‘you don’t get to share someone’s sandwich unless they want to share their sandwich with you.’ Not getting a bite of someone’s sandwich is ‘not a form of oppression, either’, Solnit says. But the analogy complicates as much as it elucidates. Suppose your child came home from primary school and told you that the other children share their sandwiches with each other, but not with her. And suppose further that your child is brown, or fat, or disabled, or doesn’t speak English very well, and that you suspect that this is the reason for her exclusion from the sandwich-sharing. Suddenly it hardly seems sufficient to say that none of the other children is obligated to share with your child, true as that might be.
> Sex is not a sandwich. While your child does not want to be shared with out of pity – just as no one really wants a mercy fuck, and certainly not from a racist or a transphobe – we wouldn’t think it coercive were the teacher to encourage the other students to share with your daughter, or were they to institute an equal sharing policy. But a state that made analogous interventions in the sexual preference and practices of its citizens – that encouraged us to ‘share’ sex equally – would probably be thought grossly authoritarian. (The utopian socialist Charles Fourier proposed a guaranteed ‘sexual minimum’, akin to a guaranteed basic income, for every man and woman, regardless of age or infirmity; only with sexual deprivation eliminated, Fourier thought, could romantic relationships be truly free. This social service would be provided by an ‘amorous nobility’ who, Fourier said, ‘know how to subordinate love to the dictates of honour’.) Of course, it matters just what those interventions would look like: disability activists, for example, have long called for more inclusive sex education in schools, and many would welcome regulation that ensured diversity in advertising and the media. But to think that such measures would be enough to alter our sexual desires, to free them entirely from the grooves of discrimination, is naive. And whereas you can quite reasonably demand that a group of children share their sandwiches inclusively, you just can’t do the same with sex. What works in one case will not work in the other. Sex isn’t a sandwich, and it isn’t really like anything else either. There is nothing else so riven with politics and yet so inviolably personal. For better or worse, we must find a way to take sex on its own terms.
> The author doesn't say "not wanting to have sex with me is problematic", they say "not wanting to date someone based on their ethnicity is a political stance and it's problematic if it's the only factor in that decision".
No, that still isn't problematic. It's someone's right to choose who they have sex with. Only a rapist denies that.
> ELI5: it's problematic as a whole, for the community and society, when people decide not to mix, to mingle based on ethnicity.
Not mingle. Sex. That's different.
Some people are really eager to defend rape apologia and I have to wonder why.
I think one can generally find many viewpoints on politics on HN, but I suppose a few commenters who post abysmal takes can drag the whole conversation down. I don't think that's really solveable without allowing people to form their own discussion rooms. Maybe fitting for Mastodon or something.
I'm tired of everything being flagged on HN that has even a 1% chance of painting feminism or something female-related in a negative light. I believe the community at large is able to have an honest discussion, but a certain minority of users keep shutting it down by flagging submissions before it even has a chance to begin.
>She thinks that like therapy, hat the teaching process can be charged with eroticism, and the professors should channel that impulse towards learning.
As in the therapy example: attraction might develop between the student & teacher. Instead of participating, the teacher should recognize/be aware that this exist but channel it back toward learning
Seems weird to me. Of course it started from Freud. I'm not outright discounting it (not like I have any evidence to) but it rubs me the wrong way that attraction would even be considered as part of the learning process. Not that the kind of power dynamic described between professors and students is great either.
The essayist sounds like a typical academic subversive. She offers no answers or theories, only questions, aka "...the politics of X" . In other words, she only "problematizes". Let's see:
She offers a clinical yet sexually charged analysis of porn with no policy proposals (heaven forbid). Could there be a greater cliche in the Humanities departments of modern universities? Oh wait, of course she wants safe, legal sex work as well. Bingo!
She wants to eroticize pedagogy, but also make sure the college administration is there to manage it. Oh, the frisson! Reference to Fraud, er Freud? Check! OH WOW! SUCH FREUD!
Freudianism was/is a pseudo-scientific cult that only lit-crit academics and $200/hr therapists still take seriously. Along with its marxist offshoots, its radical political program was instrumental in the 20th century european/american cultural suicide that had its death rattle in the 60s counter-culture victory. Our modern malaise, including the ubiquitous porn rotting our children's sexual health is the creature of those flower-power radicals.
But it's just "Porn" in the abstract. Not the creation of actual people whom it would be fairly easy to constrain if there is a cultural will to do so. But hiding that fact behind the massive force of inevitable abstractions demoralizes the people, er "consumers", to the point of impotence. Essayists like this loathsome academic are the priestly caste of the modern world, they baffle and confuse decent people.
It would take a bit of time to explain why a society might not want to legalize, regulate, and tax vice. You might also want to do a deep dive into Libertarianism and consider whether it has ever made sense or could make sense for any society you might want to live in.
Could you point to some online references of what you are suggesting ? Otherwise you are also guilty of problematizing the subject without offering answers or theories :).
Of course I could "do my own research" but that wouldn't give my any insights on your outlook.
Wtf, is this what passes for conversation this week-end on HN ? "Do your own research" as if it's an answer and a opinion ? What's next ? "Google a counter-argument" ?
Apparently I'm not far off from some brand of libertarianism. I don't think the government should apply the law to regulate vices, and rather that such issues should (must, to be a true solution and not a band-aid) be resolved by society. Excessive consumption of alcohol hasn't been solved, unfortunately, but the Prohibition wasn't effective either. I would be giving too much credit to say that repealing Prohibition was a "perfect is the enemy of good" situation.
I don't doubt that the people providing cons (i.e. why prostitution should be illegal) mean well for sexually exploited people. However, I think the Pro 6 excerpt is quite comprehensive and reasonable:
No person’s human or civil rights should be violated on the basis of their trade, occupation, work, calling or profession.
No law has ever succeeded in stopping prostitution.
...
Non-consenting adults and all children forced into sexual activity...deserve the full protection of the law and perpetrators deserve full punishment by the law.
Workers in the sex industry deserve the same rights as workers in any other trade, including the right to legal protection from crimes such as sexual harassment, sexual abuse and rape…
...
Unscrupulous people should be summarily dealt with by the law, regardless of which profession they corrupt.
The government/society is already regulating vices. It really is just a question of who gets to decide what is a vice and what is not. Propositions that reference "human or civil rights" are begging the question. What are "human rights"? What are "civil rights"?
I suggest you can't really have a useful understanding of political questions in the abstract. When you look into the history of these policy decisions, there's always something more going on than a purely reasoned universal morality.
Take your example of Prohibition. The Temperance Movement was around for a long time before it formed a political party and started gaining traction. Why? Was there any connection between the massive social upheavals that were changing the society in the U.S. at the turn of the century that might have put wind in the sails of this party? Prohibition was "progressive" politics but does that word "progressive" still mean what it meant then? No. You can't have a Progressive party without some sense of "progressing towards what?". In that case, you were talking about the WASP ruling class that had very long-held ideas about what progress meant, dating back to before the founding of the country by English Dissenters. Of course, the advent of WWI had the normal accompanying propaganda campaign. Prohibition benefited from wider anti-German sentiment (anti-beer) and war-time grain conservation efforts.
But, arguably a bigger reason for Prohibition's policy achievements were widespread anxiety about urbanization and "saloon" culture in the cities, which was widely and accurately associated with immigrants and african americans. In a sense, you can see Prohibition as a last-gasp attempt to control the social forces changing America at that time and restore "law and order". The fact that it gave rise to organized criminal gangs (mostly run by the very people they were trying to restrain) was an unintended consequence. We see a similar thing at work with the War on Drugs.
I would argue, the reason these Prohibition-type campaigns against vice fail is because they treat the symptoms, not the disease. The disease is a culture that is dissipated and lacks moral cohesion. Arguing about "moral universalisms" like libertarianism proposes is just more of the same. All honest morality is particular, just like all rights are particular. There has never been and never will be a universal morality without turning the world into one homogeneous goo. So long as there are different peoples, there will difference conceptions of the good. The sort of pro/con argumentation is a distraction from reality, imho.
The history lesson is very much appreciated. I didn't know most of those facts about Prohibition.
I agree with everything you said about morality. There is no real cure for the "disease"; critical thinking is lacking among the populace but even with it, people will still hold various moralities. I think the government should enforce a few minimal, overarching rights and households and companies can impose additional restrictions (idea may need refinement). There is no universal morality, so I say we should provide maximal freedom within reason. That would at least be a subset of many people's moralities. At the end of the day I'd rather have some government than none.
I appreciated the pro/con linked because I could see why other people held the positions they did and because I found a perspective that particularly resonated with my morality. Understanding where other people are coming from is useful even if they have significantly different moralities, I think.
(Tried posting this 5 hours ago, but the article was briefly "[dead]".)
The article doesn't actually seem to touch on "the right to sex" (it mentions it once, as a position held by some incels). I thought that would be an interesting discussion, and especially how it relates to the "right to reproduce" (and the perception by some that it is impossible in the present economy).
The two are connected, of course, by biological necessity. If no woman wants a man, then that man is unable to reproduce. I am told that in the semi-near future, it will be possible for such men to reproduce by means of artificial wombs. (And equally so for women, who do not wish to undergo pregnancy, yet desire children.)
I wonder how that would affect family structures. Children seem to need at least some kind of family structure that provides them with physical and emotional care, so it's worrying if this heralds less stability and greater neglect.
Yeah. Arguably, only people well-adjusted enough to find a mate should be allowed to reproduce (i.e. you get the "approval" of at least one other human being).
Heh, that's the bare minimum. From what I've read, people who have bad family experiences (abuse, narcissism, etc.) tend to mirror that or find partners who do, and there are plenty of outdated norms besides.