[RankingMember]

> If someone is being paid more, this person has to work more

In my experience, pay rarely has any kind of correlation to the amount of work being done. I see it merely as a pay for responsibility for the work of those under you or, more succinctly, "being paid to throw yourself under the bus in lieu of anyone you're managing".

[wahnfrieden]

Managers usually fire team members rather than take the fall for the team.

[ryoshu]

Bad managers do that. Good managers accept accountability for the failures of their teams. Delegation makes a leader more accountable, not less.

[codesnik]

I'd love to see an example of such an accepted accountability at least once in my life.

[Clubber]

>I'd love to see an example of such an accepted accountability at least once in my life.

I think that's the point, you wouldn't see it. If a good manager gets unreasonably or unfairly reamed by his boss, he's probably not gonna tell his team about it, because it would be a blow to morale. If it was indeed the team's dysfunction, he'd try to improve it.

[kevinventullo]

Next time there’s a re-org, look around for managers who net lost reports, or even “decided to move on”.

[cratermoon]

When I "decided to move on", that included deciding that management was likely not in the cards for me again. Companies that have IC staff+ roles are what attract me now.

[lupire]

And go work for them because they were busy working instead of backstabbing politics?

Meanwhile the most useless people are failing upward into CEO.

[arbitrage]

I've seen it before. After that manager stepped in to help me, I would've stepped in front of a bus for him. That is the one time I had a manager like that in my entire career.

It's rare, but it does happen.

[11101010001100]

If you need your job to live, and taking accountability means any non-zero probability of losing your job, would you take accountability? Of course it is easy to answer an hypothetical.

[RankingMember]

I certainly wouldn't dispute the existence of those managers- I'm thankful to have had some good managers who go to bat for their direct reports.

[wahnfrieden]

You had managers who "took the fall" for the team? The thread is about accepting blame and sacrifice, not about advocating for people under you

[RankingMember]

> You had managers who "took the fall" for the team?

Correct. In addition, sometimes advocating for those under you is a sacrificial act, because you're putting your reputation on the line.

[wahnfrieden]

Sounds performative rather than anything real at stake. Managers are expected to lay down rhetoric about accountability and contextualizing their team's failure.

[RankingMember]

> Managers are expected to lay down rhetoric about accountability and contextualizing their team's failure.

It sounds like the management philosophies at our respective orgs are very different.

[dustingetz]

pay is directly correlated with how much money your boss has. ice cream shops don’t pay $100k salaries. you want to double your salary, brand yourself a “consultant” and sell directly to executives, middle management needs 10 approvals to do anything.