[lmm]

Reddit is heavily moderated. The likes of Gab get banned from app stores and hosting providers; KiwiFarms shows that even if you self-host (at a level beyond most regular people's ability and resources), if you offend the wrong people then you'll be cut off the internet.

[Red_Leaves_Flyy]

>if you offend the wrong people then you'll be cut off the internet.

Disingenuous hot take. People tolerate the offensive. I’m tolerating you right now.

https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/sites/kiwi-farms

Kiwi farms was a haven for degenerate anti social wanna be mass murderer. No sane business wants that association. No one is silencing these people, they are being lawfully discriminated against (refused service) for their reprehensible behavior. That’s freedom of association in action. The laws prohibiting the government from acting against someone for their words do not apply to the individual. In other words, tolerance only extends insofar as the infringers intolerance can be tolerated without relinquishing inalienable rights.

Off topic, but kiwi farms is a weird hill to plant a flag in on this topic.

[lmm]

> No one is silencing these people, they are being lawfully discriminated against (refused service) for their reprehensible behavior.

They're not just being refused service by hosting companies or the like, ISPs are not routing to them. That's new, and that's what I think is worth "planting a flag" about; it's not a newspaper refusing to print your articles, it's the post office refusing to ship your newspaper. If that's not being silenced then I don't know what is.

[tourmalinetaco]

Additionally, for a time the SSL Certificate Authority in Greece was threatening to remove their https:// certificate for “unspecified violations of some clause.”

Said clause being, “specifically”, clause 3.1 of HARICA Subscriber Agreement. Which can be read here: https://repo.harica.gr/documents/SA-ToU_EN.pdf

[hexage1814]

Agree with you.

They are still on TOR, and currently they are back up on sneed.today (not sure why the old domain didn't come back yet?). The site seems to be hosted (I guess?) by TerraHost, a Norwegian company which is owned by the american company Epik, and which refuses censorship. I assume the people wanting to take kiwifarms down will have to go to the upstream providers of Terrahost, since they won't bend the knee.

https://bgp.tools/dns/sneed.today

The fact that they're using Terrahost as a provider isn't new, but the difference here, I guess, is that now they are using an IP owned by TerraHost rather their Null IP/ASN connecting to TerraHost and then to upstream providers such as GTT, and so on...

https://bgp.tools/dns/kiwifarms.net

Not sure what difference this makes, and I'm too much of a noob to understand what is going on exactly, so I might be talking bullshit here. But it seems to be working. Be that as it may, NGOs and institutions who defend the free internet should be opposing the censorship of kiwifarms, but they aren't because everybody knows that most of these institutions have an ideological bias...

[Red_Leaves_Flyy]

>institutions who defend the free internet should be opposing the censorship of kiwifarms

This argument is unsupported by your comment. What value does kf create? Far as I can tell it only destroys value with their trail of suicides and bigoted behavior.

[lmm]

> What value does kf create? Far as I can tell it only destroys value with their trail of suicides and bigoted behavior.

Even if that were true (and I don't think it is), freedom only for those who "create value" is no freedom at all.

[Red_Leaves_Flyy]

You obviously didn’t read the article I cited substantiating this fact.

[Red_Leaves_Flyy]

>ISPs are not routing to them

Distinction without a material difference. This is only slightly to mail delivery services refusing delivery to homes with aggressive animals. In this case it’s telecom operators not enabling violent criminals that could create liability if left unaddressed.

[tourmalinetaco]

> Kiwi farms was a haven for degenerate anti social wanna be mass murderer.

No it wasn’t. Both in life and in death William Atchison was made fun of by the members of multiple communities, gaining the posthumous nickname “Couch Cuck”. A “haven” for murderers would not obsessively archive information relating to murderers, such as social medias (which consistently delete the information to avoid being associated), prior convictions, etc with the intent to study and publicly shame them. One can argue of the efficacy of this, but it is no different than what MSM does. In fact, KiwiFarms can be attributed to the destruction of a CP/animal torture ring and multiple arrests, due to their archival efforts and Internet sleuthing.

Additionally, on the topic of “reprehensible behavior”, companies like CloudFlare happily accept money from animal abuse websites. And under every metric KiwiFarms is legal under US law. So while companies are legally allowed to disassociate for almost any reason, we have to ask why illegal websites remain while legal ones are disassociated. And considering CloudFlare initially sided with KiwiFarms, it truly is not as clear cut as “they found the content disagreeable”.

On topic to your off topic, I was definitely not expecting KiwiFarms to mentioned either.

[Red_Leaves_Flyy]

I don’t think you are aware of the depth of depravity users of kf engaged in, regularly. I said wanna be murderers, you know, the weird kids with poor social skills that probably have shit home lives and get bullied/ostracized harshly. When they find community on these boards they also find recruiters for all sorts of awful communities from neo nazis to pedophiles to whatever.

>A “haven” for murderers would not obsessively archive information relating to murderers, such as social medias (which consistently delete the information to avoid being associated), prior convictions, etc with the intent to study and publicly shame them.

This is not logical. Many murderers study infamous murder cases to learn how to be better murderers. For some it may merely be a morbid curiosity, for others, it’s research. You cannot discern the intentions from the comments, but rather the outcomes, which speaks voluminously; if you’d bother to look for the reports on this.

>KiwiFarms can be attributed to the destruction of a CP/animal torture ring and multiple arrests, due to their archival efforts and Internet sleuthing.

And 4chan got a terrorist training camp bombed. And Reddit got an innocent killed during the hunt for the Boston bomber. These are not examples of uniformly good character, even the worst criminals have soft spots. Nazis made some wondrous technology, should we forgive their attempted genocides and eugenics?

Re cloud flare, I support shaming them for this support of bad actors and hurting their bottom line but that is off topic goal post moving.

[tourmalinetaco]

> I don’t think you are aware of the depth of depravity users of kf engaged in, regularly.

Alright, can you prove they funnel others into such depraved communities?

> This is not logical.

By your own “logic” anyone who studies crime is practicing to be a mass murderer, which is objectively not true. If they were truly some murderous training ground, why is their so little as a result?

> Nazis made some wondrous technology, should we forgive their attempted genocides and eugenics?

Well the USA, Europe, and many others certainly did when harvesting their best minds. However that is besides the point, as KiwiFarms has done nothing comparable. They say mean things and archive actions taken by others in public. Making fun of others is seen as rude, however it is not illegal. If it was false and caused damages it could be slander/libel, however that has yet to be the case to my knowledge.

> I support shaming them for this support of bad actors

The problem is that there is inconsistency here. You and many others do not campaign CloudFlare to remove illegal websites, or even websites in a similar vein to KF, yet you urge them to remove a single legal (albeit unsavory) gossip forum? If this stance was uniform I could understand it better. As it stands it simply comes off as intellectually dishonest.

[watwut]

The underplaying of what KiwiFarms are is ridiculous. Issue is not they offended someone, issue is that they seek intentional real world harm.

[defrost]

The KiwiFarms issue is less what was said online in a club like forum context and more what was done in the real world by members and coordinated from KiwiFarms.

[lmm]

As far as I can see that was a smear campaign if not an outright false flag. The specific post that was mentioned as grounds for cutting it off was removed by moderators in less than 15 minutes, and was posted by an account that hadn't posted anything else.

[defrost]

You're talking about a final straw after being moved on from one "we'll host anyone" provider to another.

If I can paraphrase Ian Fleming;

* Once is happenstance,

* Twice is circumstance,

* Nth time is a sign of deeply nested anti social malcontents that seek to inflict life theatening scenarios upon others for the Lulz.

[hanselot]

But once you reach 109 times it rolls back to being coincidental right?

Those qui know, know.

In any case, lets not be deemed offensive for harboring thoughts of rebellion against the overlords lest we be yeested from the platform for attempting to pique the curiosity of those not entirely lobotomized by the oppression machine yet. Such fallacious behaviours shall be left without scrutiny while we all dance together under a rainbow of landmines, minimum wage and proxy wars funded by alphabet companies ever-seeking to exercise greater and greater control of the human mind at scale.

Yes, let's strive not to offend others, for that way we will surely make the most progress, ignoring all prior knowledge and our very evolutionary mechanisms so we don't make lines on a page that induce rage in the untrained mind.

Those that can't hold a thought without judgment, can't think critically, yet they are the ones we decide to put in charge of our social narrative?

I wonder WHO decided that was a good idea.

[lmm]

There's no need to paraphrase; "enemy action" is a very plausible and adequate explanation.