| Well, if you are the native population, what do you have to say about USA's actions since its founding until now, towards your people? It is a fair bit worse than "occupation" or "annexation", it would seem to me. I forgot to answer this part:
> "Allowed to secede", you say? Fuck you. People fought for their freedom and won, it wasn't handed to them. I am all for freedom and decentralization. In fact I have spent over a decade of hard work with my team in Ukraine and Russia, Armenia and other countries, building a system to help make that happen: https://qbix.com However, I do not believe that in people killing and getting killed for a flag. If people want to have more autonomy and freedom, they should do it within the system, because many other people don't want to be caught in the crossfire. The vast majority just want to go to work and they don't particularly care about this, despite any "fuck yous" you may throw their way. I don't want PKK to endanger Kurds, PLO to endanger Palestinians, Tibetan activists to endanger Tibetans, etc. What I want is international courts to be set up and cases brought there. I care about the health and safety of the vast majority of regular people more than I care about the national aspiration of separatists and nationalists. I want the people to rise up democratically and demand that negotiations take place on video, so we can all see what happened. Sorry if that offends you. In fact, the secret Molotov-Ribentrop pact would not have been possible in a world where governments provide transparency to their people, and the Baltic states would never have been occupied by the USSR. Latvia, Lithuania and others throughout their history were often occupied. > "can't secede from something you never joined" When it came to the USSR, they did in fact become a member: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latvian_Soviet_Socialist_Repub... As far as "allowed", I quote In 1989, the USSR also condemned the 1939 secret protocol between Nazi Germany and herself that had led to the invasion and occupation of the three Baltic countries, including Latvia. (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_occupation_of_Latvia_in...) I believe in non-violent resistance and bringing cases within the democratic system. Women's suffrage got male politicians on board, and that's how they got it done ultimately. Martin Luther King's approach got the US to pass the Civil Rights Act. Gandhi's revolution got the British to leave, and again that didn't kill a lot of Indians. Of course, when an actual genocide or famine is going on, that's different. Some people you may respect (like Winston Churchill, who was instrumental in fighting the Nazis) also was responsible for exacerbating major famines (in Bengal for instance). British also exacerbated the Great Potato Famine in neighboring Ireland. This was actually a lot more motivated by nationalism and racism, than the famines cited in socialist countries. For example, Stalin's government exacerbated a famine throughout Ukraine but also Volga region and Kazakhstan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_famine_of_1930%E2%80%93...). China under Mao had a "Great famine" as well. If I had to rank which ones were more motivated by nationalism / racism, it would be in the less socialist countries (because socialists often considered that they were uniting "proletariat of all countries"). As far as "proxy war" see the sibling thread |
That does not address anything I've said.
>> Well, if you are the native population, what do you have to say about USA's actions since its founding until now, towards your people?
Nothing. The US has not committed any "actions" against my people.
>> The vast majority just want to go to work and they don't particularly care about this, despite any "fuck yous" you may throw their way.
You are totally out of your depth again. Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania have a combined population of about 6 million. In 1989, they organized a protest against Soviet occupation, the largest protest in the history of the world, with 2 million people taking part in it - a third of the whole population. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltic_Way
In Estonia in particular, about two thirds of all Estonians came together on the same day and participated in the protest, precisely to send a fuck you to people like you who kept making excuses for the occupation.
>> When it came to the USSR, they did in fact become a member
No they didn't.
While in alliance with Germany, USSR made increasing demands to Latvia in 1939-1940, culminating with demanding establishment of Soviet military bases on Latvian soil due to "security concerns" (sounds familiar?). Latvian government kept making one concession after another to appease the USSR and avoid war, but once the bases were established, USSR used them to overthrow Latvian government, staged mock elections where only collaborants were allowed to set up their candidacy (and got all the votes), then those collaborants "asked" to join the USSR literally at gunpoint (armed Soviet military personnel were in the parliament), and then in the finale, NKVD and the Red army murdered members of legitimate Latvian government and other officials, and murdered or deported tens of thousands of people, and gave their home to Russian colonists, and then continued to exploit Latvia economically and suppressing Latvian language and culture and bringing in further colonists for 50 years.
All international organizations, from the European Court of Human Rights and European Council to the United Nations recognize the Soviet occupation of Latvia as illegal.
From a 2006 decision of the European Court of Human Rights: "Latvia, together with the other Baltic States, lost its independence in 1940 in the aftermath of the partition of Europe between Germany and the USSR agreed by Adolf Hitler's Germany and Joseph Stalin's Soviet Union by way of the secret protocol to the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, an agreement contrary to the generally recognised principles of international law. The ensuing annexation of Latvia by the Soviet Union was orchestrated and conducted under the authority of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union (CPSU), the Communist Party of Latvia (CPL) being a satellite branch of the CPSU."
In another case, related to Estonia (shared the same fate), the Court found: "The Court notes, first, that Estonia lost its independence as a result of the Treaty of Non-Aggression between Germany and the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics (also known as "Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact"), concluded on 23 August 1939, and the secret additional protocols to it. Following an ultimatum to set up Soviet military bases in Estonia in 1939, a large-scale entry of the Soviet army into Estonia took place in June 1940. The lawful government of the country was overthrown and Soviet rule was imposed by force. The totalitarian communist regime of the Soviet Union conducted large-scale and systematic actions against the Estonian population, including, for example, the deportation of about 10,000 persons on 14 June 1941 and of more than 20,000 on 25 March 1949. After the Second World War, tens of thousands of persons went into hiding in the forests to avoid repression by the Soviet authorities; part of those in hiding actively resisted the occupation regime. According to the data of the security organs, about 1,500 persons were killed and almost 10,000 arrested in the course of the resistance movement of 1944–1953. Interrupted by the German occupation in 1941–1944, Estonia remained occupied by the Soviet Union until its restoration of independence in 1991. Accordingly, Estonia as a state was temporarily prevented from fulfilling its international commitments."
Even your own liked article says: "The Soviet occupation of the Baltic states from 1939–40 and 1944–1991 is widely considered illegal by the international community and human rights organisations."
Latvia never joined the USSR and any notion of seccession is utter nonsense. Latvia was an occupied territory, and once the USSR collapsed, Latvian government returned from exile, restored its institutions, and continued serving its people after a 50-year pause violently forced upon them.
>> As far as "allowed", I quote In 1989, the USSR also condemned the 1939 secret protocol between Nazi Germany and herself that had led to the invasion and occupation of the three Baltic countries, including Latvia.
Soviet authorities denied for 50 years that the secret protocol existed, calling it a forgery, and condemned it in 1989 only because an Estonian physicist managed to get his hands on a copy authenticated by the National Archives of the United States, and brought the copy to USSR. After that, there was simply no other option than to condemn the alliance with Hitler as it was, clearly written down in black and white.
While it was an important moral victory to Latvian independence movement, it did very little to end the Soviet occupation of Latvia in practical terms. Soviet authorities continued to suppress the independence movement until the very end, until the USSR fell apart several years later. Military forces that enforced the occupation didn't leave until mid-1990s. To this day, Russia denies the illegal occupation, has not paid any reparations nor extradited war criminals, continues hostile rhetoric towards Latvia, and makes excuses for crimes against humanity commited by them in Latvia.