[EGreg]

Who are your people?

I guess I will rephrase — can you, at long last, address what I have been asking about US crimes, which have been far more egregious and affected large swaths of land and people? Where is the CONSISTENCY in the moral and practical stance being advocated?

About proxy war: yes it does, because the strawman is that Ukraine as a whole has to be a proxy for another country, for that to be a proxy war, but that’s not how proxy wars work.

You won’t see much support for invasions or occupations from me, but it is a fact that Latvia was an SSR.

Many regions do not get the luxury of independence at all. Hong Kong for instance was a mere football between two empires (Chinese and British). They don’t have a say. Neither did Kurds or Catalonians or Basques etc.

Hong Kong all by itself also had 2 million people protest recently, and China didn’t care. You don’t seem to say very much about that. I mean China’s a Big Bad too, right?

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-48656471.amp

In Chechnya, far more than 1/3 of the population showed up to protest Charlie Hebdo cartoons. And what is your prescription there?

I think peaceful protests are great. Democracy and international courts are even better! War is not. I am glad that Latvia got its independence without any shots fired. So did Australia. Not so for the USA, they fought a war to secede from the British empire, then fought an even bloodier civil war to prevent the southern states from seceding. They also fought a war with Mexico to annex a lot of territory. And so on.

USA doesn’t have a great track record of getting involved. It supports Saudi hegemony over Yemen, providing planes that bomb hospitals and markets. It supported Pakistan in Bangladesh’s war of independence, even as Pakistan’s army engaged in genocidal rape. These are recent events.

Also, US itself has invaded and occupied many areas much the same way. Some, it annexed (like when it overthrew Hawaii’s kingdom and annexed Hawaii, then stationed troops there — how is that different?) Others, it basically enslaved: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_occupation_of_Ha... … more recently, it simply invades and occupies, undermines or destroys but doesn’t annex or enslave (Iraq, Libya, etc.)

Anyway, I am critical of the Russian government and can condemn crimes done by it as well as US and China. Are you able to say anything of substance about the long list of crimes by the US? My point is that these imperialist countries and their cold war are the reason that smaller countries get caught in their proxy wars. And the only way out is for them to stop the violence and commit to good-faith dialogue where they agree not to crods each other’s red lines.

[chrysler]

>> About proxy war: yes it does, because the strawman is that Ukraine as a whole has to be a proxy for another country, for that to be a proxy war, but that’s not how proxy wars work.

The war in Ukraine does not fit the definition of proxy war that you provided. Ukrainian army is against Russian army, and both are at war because they want (Russia) or need (Ukraine) to, and not because some third party forces them to and uses them as pawns. It is a traditional war between two countries. The fact that Australia has given armored cars to Ukraine and Iran has given drones to Russia doesn't make this a shadow war between Australia and Iran.

>> I am glad that Latvia got its independence without any shots fired.

Shots were fired and people died. Russians murdered peaceful Latvians, and to this day deny that it ever happened, and shelter people who ordered and commited those crimes. And not only that. Russians have recycled one of those criminals in Ukraine and installed him as an official in occupied Donbas. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Antyufeyev

>> You won’t see much support for invasions or occupations from me, but it is a fact that Latvia was an SSR.

Republic of Latvia declared independence in 1918, was occupied by the USSR in 1940, and restored its independence when its government returned from exile in 1991. Latvian SSR was a fake government set up in 1940 by the USSR and it ceased to exist in 1991 along with the USSR itself. Latvian SSR has nothing to do with the Republic of Latvia, nor its independence, nor Latvian people. It was an illegitimate totalitarian regime run from Moscow, similar to Nazi General Government in Poland. You said that Latvia signed an seccession agreement. That is just plain false. Latvia never joined the USSR in the first place. Might as well say that the Poles joined Nazi Germany in 1939 and then in 1945 Nazis "allowed" them to secede when Wehrmacht retreated from Poland. Utter nonsense.

In fact, USSR created fake governments for every country they intended to enslave. One of the best examples is Finnish Democratic Republic, led by Otto Wille Kuusinen. But since the Soviet invasion of Finland failed, they had to abandon the project after a few months. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_Democratic_Republic

The same handwriting has more recently continued in Abkhazia (fake government created in Georgia), Transnistria (Moldova), and now in Ukraine too. Russian forces invaded Ukraine, established fake governments in Luhansk and Donetsk regions. Those fake governments "asked" to join Russia and Russia gladly accepted them. Except no-one was fooled by the charade and no-one in the world recognized them as legitimate governments, and everything they have done is legally void.

[EGreg]

> The war in Ukraine does not fit the definition of proxy war that you provided.

I haven't provided one, Wikipedia has. I will quote it and add emphasis:

A proxy war is an armed conflict between two states or non-state actors, one or both of which act at the instigation or on behalf of other parties that are not directly involved in the hostilities.

The non-state actors, as I pointed out, were, respectively:

1) The Right Sector, Azov Battallion, Dnipro and others, which were armed and trained by the CIA, as well as NATO members and allies (e.g. https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2018-07-09/ty-article/ri...)

2) The rebels in Donetsk and Luhansk, made up of local militias. They wished Donetsk and Luhansk regions to be absorbed by Russia early on, but Russia refused and told them to deal with Kyiv. The Minsk II agreements had as their aim guaranteeing a degree of autonomy WITHIN Ukraine, and that's what Russia wanted. Strelkov reports being disappointed by that.

In short, non-state actors formed paramilitary groups, one side received support from Russia and the other side received support from US, UK and other NATO members. Do you understand what I'm talking about?

This is how proxy wars form. Wikipedia goes on to say that large nuclear powers (USA and USSR, for instance) did this all the time during the cold war -- instead of engaging each other directly, each side would train rebels inside a country, against the other side. Each promised that they'd defeat the other and take over the country (e.g. Viet nam, Korea, etc. etc.) The sectarian violence is exacerbated and it tears a country apart, and often leads it into much larger conflicts as other countries double down and funnel weapons into it.

For example, KGB trained the PLO, against Israel and Jordan, after they entered the Western sphere of influence (previously, Stalin supported Israel because it was going to be a socialist country in the middle east, and largely was, with the kibbutzes and Labor party etc. but when they switched, Khrustchev and others started training "liberation organizations".) USA had an entire school devoted to this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Hemisphere_Institute_f...

Anyway, proxy wars have been happening all over the place. I gave an example of a proxy war happening in Yemen, between Iran and Saudi Arabia. It's a very common scenario and there is nothing new about the Ukraine war except it's in Europe and White Lives Matter More (TM) + Russia can be blamed and surrounded / contained. So this war is in the news whereas e.g. Yemen is not, despite being a far greater humanitarian catastrophe than in Ukraine.

You've been arguing with civility, so please let's not be obtuse on purpose. You see what I mean now, right? Ukraine has been a staging ground for a proxy war, and eventually it turned into a "regular war" as you call it, perhaps it will become a world war. I hope not.

(To be clear: your examples of Australia and Iran totally miss the mark. Read the wikipedia article, and try to steelman my argument before strawmanning it.)

>> Shots were fired and people died.

Alright, fair enough, you may know more about what really happened than what is available in official sources. But the extent of the violence was much smaller than, say, the American Revolution, or Bangladesh war of independence, or any of the dozens or hundreds of independence movements that were a lot more bloody.

> Latvian SSR was a fake government set up in 1940 by the USSR and it ceased to exist in 1991 along with the USSR itself.

What makes a government fake? History is written by the winners, but if a government allows people to elect their representatives, then it has some legitimacy. I sympathize with people's desire for complete sovereignty, but sometimes they have to settle for a degree of autonomy (as I mentioned, Hong Kong, Catalonia, etc.) and the vast majority of civilians prioritize health and safety over flags and geopolitical aspirations. I think it's obscene to volunteer people far away for the meat grinder just so you can enjoy a flag on a map for 50 years. Look at a time-lapse video of Europe to show how provincial these aspirations are. It's only recently that this myth arose that the borders of nation-states will be enshrined forever, now that UN is here.

> Latvia never joined the USSR in the first place.

By that standard, the Kingdom of Hawaii never joined the USA in the first place, and Hawaii currently has a fake government. Would you agree, if you applied a consistent standard? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overthrow_of_the_Hawaiian_King...

I just want you to recognize that the same exact situation can be viewed differently depending on what country is doing it.

> Might as well say that the Poles joined Nazi Germany in 1939 and then in 1945 Nazis "allowed" them to secede when Wehrmacht retreated from Poland. Utter nonsense.

No, the Wehrmacht retreated because they were being decimated and killed by an enraged Red Army. Soviets lost 30 million people (largely due to Stalin's incompetence, btw.) Anyway, that is not at all the same as the situation in 1991, which involved far less brutality, genocide and killing. You may be able to show some limited amount of it, but NOWHERE NEAR your example. It's in a totally different league. Find a better example.

Perhaps a closer example would be the end of the British Raj in India, or the British Mandate in Palestine. They also involved far less violence. However -- and this is the cautionary tale -- it left behind a vacuum that led to civil war in which many people were killed or fled to become refugees. My point is that you have to compare apples to apples and look at similar situations around the world, in order to draw general conclusions and advocate for prescriptions.

> In fact, USSR created fake governments for every country they intended to enslave.

Literally that's what ever empire throughout history has done, including USA. And you use the word "enslave" very liberally, I might add. Have you seen what real slavery looks like? People going about their day under a different flag and not having total political sovereignty is not slavery. Tibet is not enslaved by China, in fact China argues that Tibet's own government was far more slave-owning: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serfdom_in_Tibet_controversy

On the other hand, capitalists often did end up enslaving people. Here for example is USA literally setting up a fake government and enslaving Haiti: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_occupation_of_Ha...

One could argue that many places which the Communists "enslaved" actually liberated women, freethinkers and others, and allowed them to go get an education, they built universities, brought electricity, etc. I'm not saying communists taking over was all-good, but many people were thankful (e.g. in Uzbekistan, etc.) and also minorities that were oppressed. You have to realize that these countries are made up of many different groups.

> The same handwriting has more recently continued in Abkhazia (fake government created in Georgia), Transnistria (Moldova), and now in Ukraine too.

Yes, I agree, and I actually don't consider it a bad thing. People who live in Abhazia want to have their own republic, too. So did Crimea, they overwhelmingly voted to SECEDE from Ukraine, back in 1991: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_Crimean_sovereignty_refer... ... whereas the vote to join Ukraine was only 54%. We also can see similar things here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Kurdistan_Region_independ... and here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Catalan_independence_refe...

The thing is that UN is composed of COUNTRIES, and they don't want little pieces to fly off. So you have a weird double-standard whereby a country like Russia can bomb its own region (Chechnya) and raze its capitol city to the ground, or China can extrajudicially kidnap and lock up 1 million Uyghurs in internment camps, and UN says very little because it's "an internal matter". I find that to be obscene. But likewise when Ukraine's government uses cluster bombs in Donetsk: https://www.hrw.org/news/2014/10/20/ukraine-widespread-use-c... ... since 2014 they did it, HRW also reported it last week (!) https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/07/06/ukraine-civilian-deaths-... and USA just announced a couple days ago that it will send more cluster munitions (banned by most civilized countries) to Ukraine's government to use.

Make no mistake - these munitions will be almost exclusively killing civilians in Ukraine, NOT Russia. So it shows how much USA cares about Ukrainians: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-66144153

Surely you can see that there are real problems for the Ukrainian civilian population, and the counteroffensive has now resorted to kidnapping men off the street and shanghaing them into the meat grinder with very little training. It's time to bring it to an end.

And look, here is how US corporations benefit... it's frankly a bit insane: https://www.facebook.com/jaketran.io/videos/9654289727945826...

So yes, I understand the wish to be politically sovereign, but the majority of civilians have other priorities and frankly I think being part of the same federation, (USA, USSR, etc.) is far better and more stable and peaceful for them, than all this endless fighting and war. Countries in Sub-Saharan Africa got left behind most other countries for centuries, because they lacked any serious empires. Empires may suck during the conquering phase, but once they have formed, it's better to keep the stability. The neighboring regions stop fighting each other, and devote resources to working together. They speak the same language, have common roads, share education centers, etc. Throughout history, empires have helped move civilization forward. When people say that "paper / gunpowder / etc. was invented in china" or "algebra / chess was invented by Arabs" etc. what they really mean is that someone in a giant freaking empire invented it, and then it spread. When they talk about Pax Mongolica or Pax Romana, it was a net benefit to many: https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/3x0ae1/was_t...

[chrysler]

>> 1) The Right Sector, Azov Battallion, Dnipro and others, which were armed and trained by the CIA, as well as NATO members and allies (e.g. https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2018-07-09/ty-article/ri...)

The linked article says the opposite. I knew I was in for a treat when I saw the title: "Rights Groups Demand Israel Stop Arming neo-Nazis in Ukraine". Representatives of Ukraine's air force met with Israeli military electronics company Elbit to talk about upgrading Ukrainian air defense systems. Some nutjob used that as an example in his petition to argue that "Israel arms Nazis". Amusing.

>> 2) The rebels in Donetsk and Luhansk, made up of local militias. They wished Donetsk and Luhansk regions to be absorbed by Russia early on, but Russia refused and told them to deal with Kyiv. The Minsk II agreements had as their aim guaranteeing a degree of autonomy WITHIN Ukraine, and that's what Russia wanted. Strelkov reports being disappointed by that.

Russian invasion of Crimea took Ukraine by surprise and allowed Russia to make fast progress. Russia failed to repeat the same trick in Donbas, because Ukraine recovered from surprise, put up fierce resistance, Russian progress stalled, and it became a frozen conflict until Russia invaded with a much larger force in 2022. They miscalculated again, but nevertheless continued with the official annexation of Luhansk and Donetsk into Russia despite never controlling the full extent of the territory they annexed (eg Zaporizhzhia). The purpose of this step was to declare those territories as "Russia proper" and make nuclear threats prior to Ukraine's 2022 summer offensive. Russian surprise retreat from Kherson (also annexed) undermined those threats and showed how hollow they were.

As to "rebels", there is no reason to speak them of as of an independent entity. The European Court of Human Rights has determined that this was merely a Russian invasion force without proper insignia.

>> In short, non-state actors formed paramilitary groups, one side received support from Russia and the other side received support from US, UK and other NATO members. Do you understand what I'm talking about?

Yes, I understand why you are calling this a proxy war. In your view, this war has two sides, "rebels" (supported by Russia) and "Ukrainian Nazis" (supported by the US). The trouble is that neither is true.

>> By that standard, the Kingdom of Hawaii never joined the USA in the first place

"By that standard" is how all international organizations treat Latvia. After Latvia restored independence, it resumed relations with other countries and organizations from where they were halted by Russians in 1940.

Regarding Hawaii, I am not well enough read to comment on anything really, but as far as I know, the US government has recognized the fact that Hawaii was illegally occupied and annexed into the US. Russia refuses to admit the illegal occupation of Latvia. From what I've read, native hawaiians can freely work on restoring their independence and no-one is locking them up in labor camps for promoting the idea. Latvians did not have this luxury. The US government is far more open to Hawaiian independence than the USSR ever was to Latvian independence.

The main obstacles to Hawaiian independence seem internal. Latvia had a government in exile holding up state continuity. There was never any doubt who represented the legitimate government of Latvia. Latvia also had clearly defined citizens (all people who held citizenship at the start of occupation in 1940 + their direct descendants), whereas native hawaiians are having hard time agreeing who belongs to native hawaiians and who doesn't.

This highlights why Russians tried to murder every single member of every pre-war Latvian government (few were lucky enough to escape to exile in time), and why they brought in colonists to replace Latvian population, so there would be no Latvian government and no people for them to represent. In Latvia, the process ran for 50 years and was barely reversed. In Hawaii, the process has run for more than twice as long, and it remains to be seen if the situation is salvageable.

>> What makes a government fake? History is written by the winners, but if a government allows people to elect their representatives, then it has some legitimacy.

Elections are indeed a good indicator. Latvian SSR never had free elections (except at the very end, when Latvians immediately voted for candidates who would dissolve it). Throughout its 50 year history, only a single party was allowed, the Communist Party of Latvia, a satellite branch of the Communist Party of the USSR. Elections saw 100% participation and the sole party "won" with 100% of votes. They didn't even bother to make it look convincing.

>> So yes, I understand the wish to be politically sovereign, but the majority of civilians have other priorities and frankly I think being part of the same federation, (USA, USSR, etc.) is far better and more stable and peaceful for them, than all this endless fighting and war.

The Soviet occupation of Latvia was not stable, peaceful nor prosperous. It began to crumble as soon as the USSR stopped shipping dissenters to labor camps, and the well-being of Latvians has skyrocketed since then. By far the largest threat to Latvian culture and the well-being of Latvians is another Russian invasion. Given their history with Russian "security concerns" and how appeasement in 1939-1940 led to 50-year occupation of Latvia and countless crimes against humanity, they have no reason to take seriously your recommendations to repeat the same mistake twice.

[EGreg]

I understand you feel strongly about Latvia, but you have a huge double standard about how imperialistic countries behave and expect unrealistic behavior from one of them (Russia) but not the others (USA, China, etc). You spend some time whitewashing the US aggression and trying to explain how it’s better or different — presumably because USA is much closer to you in culture and you understand the status quo is peaceful and want to keep it that way — it would take you quite some time to explain away the dozens of aggressions USA has done since its founding and until now (much mors compared to the amount Russia has done).

Let’s just stick with the Hawaii example. You say they can’t figure out who is Hawaiian anymore and who is USA. Why do you think that is? But the same situation in Latvia is described as “moving colonists in”. The USA has been “moving colonists in” to all the regions it conquered. The entire continent full of indigenous natoons was ethnically cleansed or genocided as USA expanded, yet you say little about it or treat it calmly as a fait accompli. Big double standard. You can try to say that “well, it was longer ago” but that’s pretty dubious, Hawaii annexation by USA isn’t much more remote on the timeline than Latvia by USSR, yet you don’t say anything about internationally recognized borders and outrage in the former case.

When USA invades Iraq, or bombs Yugoslavia illegally against UN and international law, or lets Kosovo secede by referendum and stations peacekeepers there, you don’t say nearly as much as when Russia invades Ukraine or lets Abhazia secede by referendum and stations peacekeepers there etc. In the latter case, you call it “occupying”, but in the Kosovo case you call it “peacekeeping” not “NATO occupying a part of Serbia”.

I happen to support “peacekeeping” and autonomy - thus sympathetic to both Kosovo and Abhazia. I care about health and safety of the actual people, not “territorial integrity” enriching fatcats and countries.

The fact simply is that USA is too powerful and has too much control on the world stage to ever face any sanctions or organized punishment for ANYTHING they do on the world stage. Russia is weaker and more isolated (largely because it DIDNT pursue a systematic policy of expansion around the world since USSR fell apart) and USA is fully taking advantage of it, by finding anti-Russian sentiment anywhere it can and offering to install bases there. We also offer IMF and World Bank loans, and anyone who doesn’t play ball gets regime-changed. If Russia or China reacts, we’ll feed them to the wolves (the ones who are our tip of the spear) promising to defend them, and if they win in the end we’ll help rebuild the country, they’ll owe us and our corporations will come to own large swaths of it. Great strategy to keep growing and putting our bases everywhere next to our geopolitical competitors, while the populations of the countries bear the brunt of the violence when they react. If they don’t react, then we take advantage of their “naivete”. When they finallh react as a cornered animal we paint their reaction as “unprovoked and unjustified”, and spend a TON of our own political capital and effort repeating the Big Lie to make it stick long enough to win the next battle and surround them further. Containment and isolation until only one is left. And people worldwidd should accept USA as the sole superpower, policeman, reserve currency, etc. Well, it seems to be backfiring, BRICS is growing and de-dollarization is coming etc.

[chrysler]

>> You spend some time whitewashing the US aggression and trying to explain how it’s better or different

I have said no such thing, quite the opposite - I found it worse for native hawaiians, since the occupation has lasted much longer.

>> I care about health and safety of the actual people

No, you don't - you say that countries like Latvia should pursue similar neutrality as they did in 1930s, which will put them at high risk of another Russian invasion. Or better yet, that they should voluntarily join Russian "federation" so that they could be systematically wiped out in what you call peace and stability. And blacks should go back to plantations too, I suppose?

>> Russia is weaker and more isolated (largely because it DIDNT pursue a systematic policy of expansion around the world since USSR fell apart)

It did pursue that. The policy is known as Karaganov doctrine and it declared Latvia as "near abroad", that is, not a real country, but some breakaway colony on Russian border that Russians believe they have a right to enslave. Latvia has been on the receiving end of that doctrine since the early 1990s. Russia has done everything they could to undermine Latvia's independence, economic relations with other countries and cooperation with international organizations. Latvian State Security Service publishes excellent annual reports that chronicle Russian activities against them. https://vdd.gov.lv/en/useful/annual-reports