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by chrysler 1071 days ago
>> I mean I was literally in Latvia this past week - Riga and Liepaja - and spoke to cab drivers and others. I was struck by how many people speak Russian there and also how many people tell me (unprompted) the same things I’m saying here.

Russian colonists are hardly objective observers, "Russian cab driver in Riga" is a particularly meme-worthy benchmark. They are a brainwashed fifth column that Russia has tried throughout decades to pit against Latvia to weaken it and gain influence over Latvia and enslave it again. That's the main reason why Latvia is in NATO.

But even with a massive amounts of Russian colonists in Latvia, the support for Russia has dropped to 4% while 86% of Latvia's population is against. Even most colonists have come to their senses and shut up about "glorious Russia".

>> And even in the USA nearly all the experts whose job it was to know these things all predicted and warned for decades that NATO expansion would lead to exactly this outcome

Russia has invaded only countries that have not joined NATO. Ukraine didn't take the risk of invasion seriously (unlike Poland, for example), didn't join mutual defense pacts and tried to sit on both chairs and stay neutral, and that's what they got.

The invasion was indeed predictable, but for other reasons than you state. Here's Dudayev predicting in 1995 that Ukraine will see similar genocidal war as Chechnya was seeing then: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7xJl3ZrFeI That war in 1995 was a breaking point that led to Eastern European countries speeding up their entry into NATO. The war proved that Russia would stop at nothing to enslave people. Those who moved quickly are now in NATO and relatively safe, several who didn't have been invaded by Russia.

>> So no, “little green men” has NOTHING AT ALL to do with Russia having “boots on the ground” in Donbas. Russia didn’t invade Donbas in 2015.

European Court of Human Rights has decided otherwise: "the Court found that areas in eastern Ukraine in separatist hands were, from 11 May 2014 and up to at least 26 January 2022, under the jurisdiction of the Russian Federation. It referred to the presence in eastern Ukraine of Russian military personnel from April 2014 and the large-scale deployment of Russian troops from August 2014 at the latest. It further found that the respondent State had a significant influence on the separatists’ military strategy; that it had provided weapons and other military equipment to separatists on a significant scale from the earliest days of the “DPR” and the “LPR” and over the following months and years; that it had carried out artillery attacks upon requests from the separatists; and that it had provided political and economic support to the separatists."

https://hudoc.echr.coe.int/eng?i=001-222889

>> Outside NATO countries, outside the bubble, people largely think what I am saying.

Most people in the world disapprove what Russia is doing. Disapproval skyrocketed in 2022, largest change towards disapproval was in Southern America. https://www.voanews.com/a/global-public-perception-of-russia...

2 comments

It seems to me I keep being evenhanded (admitting Russia armed rebels against a government, for instance, while saying USA does it routinely) while you’re being super one sided (focused solely on bad actions by Russia and NONE by the USA, like at all, including the ones that contributed to this very conflict, but in general you don’t seem to care if USA does the kinds of things you denounce, nor think it should face the consequences you advocate, nor believe that the same level of drastic response should be taken, sacrificing civilians and so on).

“Russian colonists” is an extremely biased way of labeling people who moved to a region while living in a federation, and wound up living there after the federation allowed the regions to secede. By contrast, the USA fought a civil war and killed millions of people to “preserve the union” and prevent anyone from ever seceding. The USA conquered territory, eg the state you live in (California) is part of a huge swarh down to Texas which was simply TAKEN from Mexico, and that’s why so many spanish speakers live there and so many cities have spanish names. That’s far more egregious (as is taking an entire continent from Native American nations, invading, enslaving people etc etc.) than voluntarily allowing secession (eg Brexit) and then having a lot of Russian-speakers there.

Over half of the people I see in Latvia speak Russian as I pass by. Including in the capitol, Riga. That was also the case in Kyiv in 2018 when I was there last. To you they are a “fifth column” — that’s very telling. Because by speaking Russian they undermind the anti-Russian agenda you seem to support (??) It’s like an anti-vaxxer or an old school liberal being “on the wrong side of history”.

This “fifth column” includes grandparents in Latvia who will soon be forced out of the country because due to new laws because they won’t learn the language. They don’t have citizenship and were never granted it, much like Palestinians in Lebanon or Syri, but to be fair they are treated MUCH better. Still, they aren’t exactly “fully welcome”, and may have to be deported in their old age soon. That’s the kind of stuff I heard from Latvians who grew up in Latvia and whose elderly parents haven’t mastered the language. (When Donald Trump insists that IMMIGRANTS learn English, he is excoriated.) I mean, maybe have a carve-our for elderly and infirm peolle at least? But the anti-Russian-language crowd has been emboldened of late. They already outlawed SPEAKING it on a job (even a private job) and teaching it in schools (even private schools).

It’s nothing new, after the Ottoman empire fell apart many people were pissed at Turkey, especially Christians who got essentially genocided (Armenians, Greeks, etc). I can understand Latvians wanting to preserve their language. That’s because I can understand where people are coming from on MULTIPLE sides. Why not try it in the case of Russia and USA? The majority of the Russian public supports this war just as the US public supported the Iraq war — and rather than caricature them all, or say they’re deluded by one man, it’s crucial to understand why they do support it.

As far as your criteria, it sounds EXACTLY like what NATO has been doing in Ukraine as well, further supporting my point about a symmetric proxy war:

  providing weapons and military equipment

  Significant influence on military strategy

  political and economic support
So by this logic, NATO is involved in the war, at the least, and “has boots on the ground fighting in Ukraine”. And Ukraine is already a de-facto NATO member, said its own leaders.

USA didn’t havs boots on the ground when we did the above things to Syrian rebels, or Contras, or Mujahideen etc etc etc.? CIA made sure we didnt have official soldiers there but did that make it “boots on the ground”?

Of course that’s mostly rhetorical nonsense. USA didn’t have boots on the ground when its military contractors and volunteers from USA were in Iraq? No one knows how many military contractors were in Iraq.

This is all wordplay. I condemn Russia for supporting terrorists but USA does it all day long and very curiously you always seem to avoid the subject of how do we stop that. You don’t seem to care that “great powers” destabilize smaller countries, but care deeply if Russia does it.

To take a proxy war going on at the same time that has been actually even more destructive, but has nothing to do with Russia… Yemen. Maybe then you will see it really was a proxy war in Ukriane. In Yemen, Iran, playing the role of USA in Ukraine, fomented a revolution by Houthi Rebels, and provided support for them, but less than USA did for Ukraine’s paramilitary and military. Saudis responded worse than Russia did to maintain their power — they blockaded the country and millions of people are starving. For every hospital Russia bombed in Ukraine, the Saudi coalition using US planes bombed multiple hospitals, markets, mosques, schools.

We heard about the maternity ward with a couple causalties endlessly, but do you remember seeing any stories of hospitals bombed in Yemen? Yet we help the Saudis continue, what is the consistent logic…

https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/interactive/20...

Beirut got attacked by the same group (ISIS) as Paris did, on the same day, same number of causalties. Yet the world lit up in French colors and hardly anyone remembered Lebanon: https://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/16/world/middleeast/beirut-l...

The reasons people treat the Ukraine war specially from everything else, even wars that lead to even more misery, are:

1. European Lives Matter More

2. Opportunity to blame Russia and finally isolate it and prove it’s the worst actor in the world

It’s like when Republicans welcome refugees from Cuba with open arms (because they can blame socialism) but hate allowing refugees from central America seek asylum. It’s a double standard with a clear agenda.

>> “Russian colonists” is an extremely biased way of labeling people who moved to a region while living in a federation, and wound up living there after the federation allowed the regions to secede.

Latvia wasn't "allowed to secede", but was occupied by force in 1940 and restored its independence in 1991 when the USSR crumbled. Soviet forces tried to prevent it using violent means until the very end: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Barricades In Riga, Nevzorov recorded a famous video with Spetsnaz instructor preparing soldiers to go on a rampage on civilians. In neighbouring Lithuania, Soviet forces drove tanks over civilians: https://i.pinimg.com/originals/a7/eb/15/a7eb15202e9b6655af25... "Allowed to secede", you say? Fuck you. People fought for their freedom and won, it wasn't handed to them.

As to colonization, Latvia is literally an example in Wikipedia article on Colonization: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colonization#Baltic_states

Over the three Baltic countries, 630 000 people were murdered or deported and their homes were given to Russian colonists. Due to oppressive policies and constant flow of colonizers, the share of Latvians in Latvia steadily decreased until they were about to become a minority in their own country by the late 1980s. Latvia was mercilessly exploited by Russians, and those colonists who are now left there are former plantation owners, bitter that they have no special status and no slaves anymore, and have to learn the language of slaves and drive a cab to survive.

>> my point about a symmetric proxy war

"Proxy war" is nothing but a hollow Russian talking point, because Russians see Ukrainians as inferior and cannot bring themselves to admit that they are losing to "subhumans". So they are desperate to depict this as a grand war against the whole NATO. It's not. Russian invasion of Donbas was a Russian military action from the earliest days, carried out by its special forces and regular army. According to top Russian commander of the invading forces, they had next to no local support. In contrast, Ukrainian defense against Russian invasion is fought by Ukrainians under Ukrainian command, with military aid from the whole world - such as tanks from Morocco, artillery guns from Sweden, shells from Pakistan and APCs from Australia -, and not from anyone in particular.

Proxy war is not a hollow Russian talking point, it is a literal description of what happens. This article on Proxy War fits what is going on and it happened all throughout the cold war the same way, leaving many countries ravaged: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proxy_war

People who don’t want Ukraine to be the next Afghanistan are not “Russian agents”. They likely care about the Ukrainian people more than you do.

What you call “the USSR crumbling” is in fact what I described — a federation whose constitution allowed for its members to get together (originally in a secret meeting in Beloverzhakaya Puscha, much like the creation of the Fed on Jekyll island) and sign an agreement to secede.

Brexit was also possible because the EU allows secession. The US does NOT.

How do you always manage to ignore everything about genociding the native population, ethnic cleansing, conquest of huge swaths of territory from a neighboring country — when your own country does it — but even the very fact of regular folks peacefully moving to a region of the federation which later seceded and proclaimed independence, is described as “Russian colonists”. Are you not a US colonist then? Where are the native nations that used to be on that land? Why is your city part of the US and not Mexico? This EXTREME double standard is defended by a brilliant invention — the word “whataboutism”. It can excuse the biggest double standards but simply saying they are “off-topic”, even while employing them! I wrote a post called “whataboutism considered harmful” years ago.

We may not ever get the absolute truth, but eliminating double standards is how people strive towards getting closer through intellectuall honest discussion. The first thing you have to think when you make a claim X is bad, so we must do Y is consider whether you are advocating an extreme double standard.

As far as the rest — once again, everything you say is doubly true about your own country but you’ve never cared. Will you support at LEAST the same level of sanctions and isolation for the US? Of course, that’s a sheer fantasy but if you feel so strongly about these principles, is your silence just based on the unenforceability or because you believe the US is a shining city on a hill, a democracy that shows the world the best ways to live and that’s why it’s entitled to take over a continent, carve off parts of countries, be the world’s policeman, invade, occupy, regime change regularly around the world in dozens of countries etc.?

Everything you described btw is true of many federations - Tibet complains about China, Catalonia complains about Spain, various US states complain about the US, etc. To say nothing of native american reservations. It is hardly a cause for nuclear war.

> Proxy war is not a hollow Russian talking point, it is a literal description of what happens. This article on Proxy War fits what is going on and it happened all throughout the cold war the same way, leaving many countries ravaged: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proxy_war

Who is Ukraine a proxy for?. Who is Russia a proxy for?.

Russia has repeatedly said they started this war for imperialistic reasons, I find hard to connect imperialistic war with proxy war.

> We may not ever get the absolute truth, but eliminating double standards is how people strive towards getting closer through intellectuall honest discussion.

Spewing the same 4 paragraphs about America bad

Whatabout Afghanistan

Whatabout Cuba

Whatabout event from 200 years ago

Does not really pass muster for "intellectuall honest discussion".

Again, all false I'm afraid.

> Who is Ukraine a proxy for?. Who is Russia a proxy for?.

That's not what Proxy War works. You probably know that, and are just arguing a straw man. But here we go:

During classical antiquity and the Middle Ages, many non-state proxies were external parties that were introduced to an internal conflict and aligned themselves with a belligerent to gain influence and to further their own interests in the region.[3][4] Proxies could be introduced by an external or local power and most commonly took the form of irregular armies which were used to achieve their sponsor's goals in a contested region.[4] Some medieval states like the Byzantine Empire used proxy warfare as a foreign policy tool by deliberately cultivating intrigue among hostile rivals and then backing them when they went to war with each other.

If you want the names of these belligerents, we have on the one side the rebels of the Donbas region, and on the other side we have groups like Right Sector, Azov Battallion and Dnipro. Anyway, the proxy war has now ballooned into more of a world war, and all sides contributing to escalating it, instead of speaking with each other to work together to resolve it.

For another example of similar dynamics that don't involve Russia at all (but of course involve USA because USA inserts itself into every conflict): Houthi Rebels are party of a proxy war where Iran has given them far less weapons and training and support, than USA and its allies have done with Ukraine. And China is in the process of finally getting Iran and Saudis to settle it, showing leadership where USA has abdicated it (thanks to Trump scuttling the Iran deal).

It used to be OK as late as 2018 to point this out... until the battallions on "our" side became whitewashed, just like the "moderate rebels" in Syria (but of course not the Houthi rebels in Yemen): https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2018-07-09/ty-article/ri...

But now, Human Rights Watch, White Helmets, Amnesty International and others were attacked by both sides, including the Ukrainian side, for reporting impartially, or working with "the other side" to render humanitarian aid. For example:

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/08/ukraine-ukrai...

2014: https://www.hrw.org/news/2014/10/20/ukraine-widespread-use-c...

Three days ago: https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/07/06/ukraine-civilian-deaths-...

And of course the USA supports this directly, here is a title of an article from a few hours ago: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-66144153

Title: "Cluster bombs: Unease grows over US sending cluster bombs to Ukraine"

"Oh but whatabout USA. America bad. That's off topic. USA is not involved in this war. We're just helping Ukrainians!"

I'm sure this will help the Ukrainian civilian population massively.

Even in Bucha, the Guardian's investigation showed that the majority of people died from shrapnel such as "flechettes", after autopsies were conducted. The real tragedy is how many civilians die in the crossfire, especially from cluster munitions which are banned by tons of countries, but notably NOT by USA, Ukraine and Russia: https://infobrics.org/post/35646/

I see no care from you for the Russian cluster weapons they are being pointed at populated civilian areas intentionally.

> instead of speaking with each other to work together to resolve it.

This is Russias doing more than anything, but can you blame the Ukrainians, would you want to "speak" with the person who raped your child, killed your wife and executed your bother before they annex some of your house?.

> But now, Human Rights Watch, White Helmets, Amnesty International and others were attacked by both sides, including the Ukrainian side, for reporting impartially, or working with "the other side" to render humanitarian aid. For example:

These articles get attacked because they are ridiculous and come from a very privileged position.

> I'm sure this will help the Ukrainian civilian population massively.

If it helps push back Russia it will undoubtedly help them, what Russia does to a civilian population after it captures some citizens is beyond horrific.

> Even in Bucha, the Guardian's investigation showed that the majority of people died from shrapnel such as "flechettes", after autopsies were conducted. The real tragedy is how many civilians die in the crossfire, especially from cluster munitions which are banned by tons of countries, but notably NOT by USA, Ukraine and Russia:

Yep and this crossfire will go to 0 when Russia leaves Ukraine, so until then we need to arm them with all the weapons they need to make Russia leave.

You do want Russia out of Ukraine right?.

> https://infobrics.org/post/35646/

Your source is literally an alliance Russia is a founding member of LOL.

>> Proxy war is not a hollow Russian talking point, it is a literal description of what happens. This article on Proxy War fits what is going on and it happened all throughout the cold war the same way, leaving many countries ravaged: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proxy_war

Calling the war in Ukraine a "proxy war" doesn't match the provided definition on Wikipedia. Ukraine is not fighting at the instigation or on behalf of others. Ukraine is fighting for itself and struggled hard to get any considerable military support in the first months of the war.

>> What you call “the USSR crumbling” is in fact what I described — a federation whose constitution allowed for its members to get together (originally in a secret meeting in Beloverzhakaya Puscha, much like the creation of the Fed on Jekyll island) and sign an agreement to secede.

Latvia did not sign any seccesion agreements. Can't secede from something you never joined. The constitution of invaders has no bearing on Latvia, it's null and void.

>> How do you always manage to ignore everything about genociding the native population, ethnic cleansing, conquest of huge swaths of territory from a neighboring country — when your own country does it

My country has never done it. I am the native population. Perhaps you should assume less about other people before trying to smear them with white guilt.

Well, if you are the native population, what do you have to say about USA's actions since its founding until now, towards your people? It is a fair bit worse than "occupation" or "annexation", it would seem to me.

I forgot to answer this part: > "Allowed to secede", you say? Fuck you. People fought for their freedom and won, it wasn't handed to them.

I am all for freedom and decentralization. In fact I have spent over a decade of hard work with my team in Ukraine and Russia, Armenia and other countries, building a system to help make that happen: https://qbix.com

However, I do not believe that in people killing and getting killed for a flag. If people want to have more autonomy and freedom, they should do it within the system, because many other people don't want to be caught in the crossfire. The vast majority just want to go to work and they don't particularly care about this, despite any "fuck yous" you may throw their way. I don't want PKK to endanger Kurds, PLO to endanger Palestinians, Tibetan activists to endanger Tibetans, etc. What I want is international courts to be set up and cases brought there. I care about the health and safety of the vast majority of regular people more than I care about the national aspiration of separatists and nationalists. I want the people to rise up democratically and demand that negotiations take place on video, so we can all see what happened. Sorry if that offends you.

In fact, the secret Molotov-Ribentrop pact would not have been possible in a world where governments provide transparency to their people, and the Baltic states would never have been occupied by the USSR. Latvia, Lithuania and others throughout their history were often occupied.

> "can't secede from something you never joined"

When it came to the USSR, they did in fact become a member: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latvian_Soviet_Socialist_Repub...

As far as "allowed", I quote In 1989, the USSR also condemned the 1939 secret protocol between Nazi Germany and herself that had led to the invasion and occupation of the three Baltic countries, including Latvia. (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_occupation_of_Latvia_in...)

I believe in non-violent resistance and bringing cases within the democratic system. Women's suffrage got male politicians on board, and that's how they got it done ultimately. Martin Luther King's approach got the US to pass the Civil Rights Act. Gandhi's revolution got the British to leave, and again that didn't kill a lot of Indians.

Of course, when an actual genocide or famine is going on, that's different. Some people you may respect (like Winston Churchill, who was instrumental in fighting the Nazis) also was responsible for exacerbating major famines (in Bengal for instance). British also exacerbated the Great Potato Famine in neighboring Ireland. This was actually a lot more motivated by nationalism and racism, than the famines cited in socialist countries. For example, Stalin's government exacerbated a famine throughout Ukraine but also Volga region and Kazakhstan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_famine_of_1930%E2%80%93...). China under Mao had a "Great famine" as well. If I had to rank which ones were more motivated by nationalism / racism, it would be in the less socialist countries (because socialists often considered that they were uniting "proletariat of all countries").

As far as "proxy war" see the sibling thread

>> As far as "proxy war" see the sibling thread

That does not address anything I've said.

>> Well, if you are the native population, what do you have to say about USA's actions since its founding until now, towards your people?

Nothing. The US has not committed any "actions" against my people.

>> The vast majority just want to go to work and they don't particularly care about this, despite any "fuck yous" you may throw their way.

You are totally out of your depth again. Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania have a combined population of about 6 million. In 1989, they organized a protest against Soviet occupation, the largest protest in the history of the world, with 2 million people taking part in it - a third of the whole population. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltic_Way

In Estonia in particular, about two thirds of all Estonians came together on the same day and participated in the protest, precisely to send a fuck you to people like you who kept making excuses for the occupation.

>> When it came to the USSR, they did in fact become a member

No they didn't.

While in alliance with Germany, USSR made increasing demands to Latvia in 1939-1940, culminating with demanding establishment of Soviet military bases on Latvian soil due to "security concerns" (sounds familiar?). Latvian government kept making one concession after another to appease the USSR and avoid war, but once the bases were established, USSR used them to overthrow Latvian government, staged mock elections where only collaborants were allowed to set up their candidacy (and got all the votes), then those collaborants "asked" to join the USSR literally at gunpoint (armed Soviet military personnel were in the parliament), and then in the finale, NKVD and the Red army murdered members of legitimate Latvian government and other officials, and murdered or deported tens of thousands of people, and gave their home to Russian colonists, and then continued to exploit Latvia economically and suppressing Latvian language and culture and bringing in further colonists for 50 years.

All international organizations, from the European Court of Human Rights and European Council to the United Nations recognize the Soviet occupation of Latvia as illegal.

From a 2006 decision of the European Court of Human Rights: "Latvia, together with the other Baltic States, lost its independence in 1940 in the aftermath of the partition of Europe between Germany and the USSR agreed by Adolf Hitler's Germany and Joseph Stalin's Soviet Union by way of the secret protocol to the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, an agreement contrary to the generally recognised principles of international law. The ensuing annexation of Latvia by the Soviet Union was orchestrated and conducted under the authority of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union (CPSU), the Communist Party of Latvia (CPL) being a satellite branch of the CPSU."

In another case, related to Estonia (shared the same fate), the Court found: "The Court notes, first, that Estonia lost its independence as a result of the Treaty of Non-Aggression between Germany and the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics (also known as "Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact"), concluded on 23 August 1939, and the secret additional protocols to it. Following an ultimatum to set up Soviet military bases in Estonia in 1939, a large-scale entry of the Soviet army into Estonia took place in June 1940. The lawful government of the country was overthrown and Soviet rule was imposed by force. The totalitarian communist regime of the Soviet Union conducted large-scale and systematic actions against the Estonian population, including, for example, the deportation of about 10,000 persons on 14 June 1941 and of more than 20,000 on 25 March 1949. After the Second World War, tens of thousands of persons went into hiding in the forests to avoid repression by the Soviet authorities; part of those in hiding actively resisted the occupation regime. According to the data of the security organs, about 1,500 persons were killed and almost 10,000 arrested in the course of the resistance movement of 1944–1953. Interrupted by the German occupation in 1941–1944, Estonia remained occupied by the Soviet Union until its restoration of independence in 1991. Accordingly, Estonia as a state was temporarily prevented from fulfilling its international commitments."

Even your own liked article says: "The Soviet occupation of the Baltic states from 1939–40 and 1944–1991 is widely considered illegal by the international community and human rights organisations."

Latvia never joined the USSR and any notion of seccession is utter nonsense. Latvia was an occupied territory, and once the USSR collapsed, Latvian government returned from exile, restored its institutions, and continued serving its people after a 50-year pause violently forced upon them.

>> As far as "allowed", I quote In 1989, the USSR also condemned the 1939 secret protocol between Nazi Germany and herself that had led to the invasion and occupation of the three Baltic countries, including Latvia.

Soviet authorities denied for 50 years that the secret protocol existed, calling it a forgery, and condemned it in 1989 only because an Estonian physicist managed to get his hands on a copy authenticated by the National Archives of the United States, and brought the copy to USSR. After that, there was simply no other option than to condemn the alliance with Hitler as it was, clearly written down in black and white.

While it was an important moral victory to Latvian independence movement, it did very little to end the Soviet occupation of Latvia in practical terms. Soviet authorities continued to suppress the independence movement until the very end, until the USSR fell apart several years later. Military forces that enforced the occupation didn't leave until mid-1990s. To this day, Russia denies the illegal occupation, has not paid any reparations nor extradited war criminals, continues hostile rhetoric towards Latvia, and makes excuses for crimes against humanity commited by them in Latvia.

Russian colonists

Given that nearly every place in Europe is currently being sat on by people who kicked some other group out of there, way back when -- even Riga itself was part of territory inhabited by Finno-Ugric peoples before becoming basically a German (Hanseatic) settlement for 600+ years -- not to mention the genetic "colonist" guilt inherited by virtually everyone in the US/CAN/UK/AUS/NZ of European ancestry, by your calculus --

Let's just say your putting yourself on some very thin ice, out there, in bandying about pejoratives like this.