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by belphanior 5216 days ago
Let me tell you a story.

A friend of a friend runs an independent midsize hotel here in Germany.

They used to offer free internet access. Then one of their guests used the connection to download copyrighted stuff.

In due course a nasty letter from a lawyer arrived, demanding payment of around 1000€ and as fighting and losing would have been much more expensive, they payed. They were unable to recover the money, because there was no way to prove which of their guests at that time was responsible.

The very next thing they did was to shut down the free internet and bring in an outside company to provide it (with per day and per hour fees for the guests).

The reasons:

1) By having someone else legally responsible for the internet connection, they don't have any liability for future copyright violations.

2) All guests are now "helping" to pay back the money they lost.

2 comments

>They were unable to recover the money, because there was no way to prove which of their guests at that time was responsible.

That's exactly why in all likelihood, they would've won. It's the perfect setup and - in germany - an argument for securing the wlan not better than the default-setting suggests. I am always surprised by the "there is a chance we might loose and pay more, so we will pay"-attitude that seems to be common in such cases.

I don't know about the current climate for copyright cases in Germany, but I don't think that the board of a hotel chain will have or want any stake in the copyright fight as that is so far from their own business interests.

By choosing to pay €1000 this month they save a lot of money.That small amount of a settlement is pocket change for a hotel compared to the lengthy legal process that may be drawn out for months, and cost them much more and be without a guaranteed win in sight.

EDIT: Forgot that the hotel was independent, but my point still stands, especially for a hotel without the insurance of being in a hotel chain.

You are not wrong. And there was a time when such cases were very unclear, even for those with more knowledge than typical known.

I still think that it would now be a better idea to fight. It's a sure 1000€-loss + the unhappy customers (cause of missing free wlan) vs a maybe-loss and a chance to continue the free wlan. But I understand the tought-process you described, and it was maybe a different legal situation.

I'm assuming there's some kind of protection for ISPs, or it'd be impossible to run one in Germany. Couldn't they apply to the same rules, since they're effectively an ISP?
The idea of ISP protection is to say that some particular other person is responsible, instead of the ISP, so that they can get sued/fined/imprisoned instead. Looks like these guys were not tracking that.
That's simply false (in germany!). The keyword is Access-Provider. See http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/tmg/__7.html and http://www.it-recht-kanzlei.de/providerhaftung-stoererhaftun...
My German isn't good enough to understand those articles, and I'm finding it a bit tricky to understand the Google translation. The jist I'm getting from those two pages is that the access provider isn't liable for what is transmitted if the transfer is initiated by another user.

I think the bit I'm referring to would be covered by § 15 paragraph (4), which Google translates to "To comply with existing legal, statutory or contractual retention periods, the service provider may block the data." I think "block" here means "store", in the sense that the user data which includes "Information on the beginning and end and the extent of each use" (paragraph 1) needs to be recorded (and retained) for a period of time required by a different statute.

I feel like I only understand about 30% of those documents, I might make more progress with a better translation!

http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/tmg/__15.html

Sorry, i oversaw your reply. That paragraph is about what a provider may store, and it is pretty rigid. As far as i know, in practice they save more (that law is not fully followed).

>(4) Der Diensteanbieter darf Nutzungsdaten über das Ende des Nutzungsvorgangs hinaus verwenden, soweit sie für Zwecke der Abrechnung mit dem Nutzer erforderlich sind (Abrechnungsdaten). Zur Erfüllung bestehender gesetzlicher, satzungsmäßiger oder vertraglicher Aufbewahrungsfristen darf der Diensteanbieter die Daten sperren.

This informally translates to: "The provider may use data about the usage after the usage, if those data are necessary to calculate the billings. He may save those data to fulfill existing deadlines, coming from law or contract"

There don't seem to exist an english translation of that law.