[likeabbas]

To try to catch hacker news up to the situation:

David Grusch, A former NGA intelligence officer has recently come forward with allegations that there are waived, unacknowledged Special Access Programs that are reverse engineering non-human technology, and that these programs have not had proper congressional oversight.

Why should we give him the time of day? Well, he was one of the highest intelligence officials in our nation. He was read in to over 2000 special access programs, and he gave Biden the presidential daily briefing for the NGA on a daily basis. He's given 11 hours of testimony under oath to the congressional intelligence committees; giving program names, locations, and people working on those "rogue" programs.

These allegations are incredibly serious. There are only two outcomes from here: either he is lying and this is some big government psy-op, or he is telling the truth. Either way, congress should investigate and get to the bottom of this.

Marco Rubio amplifying Grusch's allegations by confirming that other whistleblowers who have first hand knowledge of the programs have also testified to the fact.

Here is the article that broke the story: https://thedebrief.org/intelligence-officials-say-u-s-has-re...

Here is the interview he did with Ross Coulthart: https://www.newsnationnow.com/space/ufo/we-are-not-alone-the...

[tomku]

The whistleblower's actual bio, from the Debrief article:

"At the National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency, Grusch served as a Senior Intelligence Capabilities Integration Officer, cleared at the Top Secret/Secret Compartmented Information level, and was the agency’s Senior Technical Advisor for Unidentified Aerial Phenomena analysis/Trans-Medium Issues. From 2016 to 2021, he served with the National Reconnaissance Office as Senior Intelligence Officer and led the production of the NRO director’s daily briefing. Grusch was a GS-15 civilian, the military equivalent of a Colonel."

He was not even close to "one of the highest intelligence officials in our nation". He was almost certainly not "read into over 2000 special access programs" and there's no credible claim that he ever briefed the President, let alone did it daily. He was a mid-level analyst who specialized in UAPs. He testified to Congress about what he heard and what he believes, and both of those could very easily be wrong without there being a "big government psy-op".

[likeabbas]

Explain this to me: Why would the senate intelligence committee pass an amendment to the NDAA 2024 just 3 weeks after Grusch's allegations went public that include the following:

> "a comprehensive list of all non-earth origin or exotic unidentified anomalous phenomena material" possessed and to make it available to the AARO director for "assessment, analysis, and inspection."

source: https://douglasjohnson.ghost.io/senate-intelligence-bill-giv...

[542458]

> There are only two outcomes from here

Why are “David is having a very public mental health crisis.” or “David was mistaken about those programs.” not possibilities?

[caladin]

FTA:

> Rubio told NewsNation that there are others in the intelligence community who have come forward with “firsthand” accounts of UFO hardware. Rubio, a longtime advocate for transparency on the alien issue, claims there are several more intelligence whistleblowers with “high clearances” who have shared similar allegations with the Senate Intelligence Committee.

[likeabbas]

They might be possibilities. But, the senate intelligence committee recently passed an amendment to the NDAA 2024 just 3 weeks after Grusch went public to include the following:

> The new UAP language (found in Section 1104 of the bill) would require "any person currently or formerly under contract with the Federal Government that has in their possession material or information provided by or derived from the Federal Government relating to unidentified anomalous phenomena that formerly or currently is protected by any form of special access or restricted access" to notify the director of the All-domain Anomaly Resolution Office (AARO) within 60 days of enactment, and to provide within 180 days (six months) "a comprehensive list of all non-earth origin or exotic unidentified anomalous phenomena material" possessed and to make it available to the AARO director for "assessment, analysis, and inspection."

source: https://douglasjohnson.ghost.io/senate-intelligence-bill-giv...

Why would the senate intel committee do that if they didn't believe Grusch's claims?

[542458]

The United States government also took accusations of satanic sex cults in the US very seriously, funding protection programs, conferences, and research. Turns out that was all the product of flawed investigation, but representatives knew their constituents were concerned and wanted to be seen doing something (or at least wanted to avoid accusations of doing nothing).

I believe a similar explanation could apply here.

[likeabbas]

Do you have a source on that? Did very highly credentialed and trusted intelligence officers come out and testify under oath that there were satanic sex cults?

There is a big difference here. Grusch has given specific locations and names of people that congress can subpoena. Marco Rubio has confirmed that other highly credentialed whistleblowers with first hand knowledge are confirming Grusch’s claims. I believe we will know soon enough whether this is real or not.

[542458]

In the case of the satanic panic, people (including well-credentialed physiologists, sociologists, and criminal investigators) also testified under oath that the abuses had occurred. People also testified and made specific accusations before congress.

And Rubio has said (intentionally or not) very demonstrably false things in the past. I wouldn’t trust him to always be accurate.

[likeabbas]

You haven’t provided a source for any of this.

Let’s just look at the facts here. Grusch has given congressmen locations of where these alleged craft are held, program names that the SAPs are hiding under, and names of people involved. Congress could very easily get to the bottom of this by appointing a special envoy with a full top secret SCI clearance to go investigate these locations, and they could subpoena the people that Grusch has pointed out who are involved with the programs. This could be resolved in a week if they would just do that, so why not let them investigate this really quickly?

[behrlich]

> These allegations are incredibly serious. There are only two outcomes from here: either he is lying and this is some big government psy-op, or he is telling the truth. Either way, congress should investigate and get to the bottom of this.

This is what is so frustrating about everyone dismissing this so off hand. Don't you at least want to get to the bottom of how large numbers of high ranking government officials have been convinced - or convinced to lie to us about - the US government being in possession of craft.

_Something_ is happening. Why don't we find out what?

[AlexandrB]

Was _something_ happening with "Havana Syndrome"? In the end, doesn't seem so.

In both cases Occam's Razor points to a bunch of people simply being fooled by their senses and doubling down on that time and time again. Meanwhile we'll waste a whole bunch of money chasing phantoms.

[likeabbas]

The Havana syndrome stuff is still highly classified. From what I’ve heard, there’s something going on there.

[Jolter]

That's the problem with the Havana Syndrome -- it's all "from what I've heard", AKA hearsay.

There is simply no scientifically credible evidence of any malfeasance. The fact that the government agencies have not come out outright and said as much, can be easily explained by the fact that they have nothing to gain by debunking it.

You can rest assured that there are no longer any CIA agents assigned to investigating the Havana events, because they have long ago concluded that there is no substance to the story. They'll never make a press release about such a non-event.

[likeabbas]

Professor Gary Nolan of Stanford doesn’t seem to think Havana syndrome is a “non event” considering he was contacted by the CIA to do brain scans of the victims.

I agree it’s frustrating because the entire situation is classified, but this is how the intelligence community works. We can’t show our hands by making reports to the public. I hope one day we can.

There is a discussion in congress about trying to change the classification system since the default is to over-classify everything, but we will see if that happens.

[Jolter]

I know nothing at all about Gary Nolan of Stanford except what you wrote above, so don’t take the following as disparaging him.

That said: it is not difficult to imagine a certain bias towards making an interesting finding, when given such an assignment by the government.

The lack of a control group and blinding makes every result of such a scanning study very vulnerable to such biases.

Hence, I would advise placing very little weight behind its findings.

[lusus_naturae]

I want to know how it was ascertained that this technology is "non-human".

[likeabbas]

Some of that is divulged in the original article https://thedebrief.org/intelligence-officials-say-u-s-has-re...

[lusus_naturae]

> Analysis has determined that the objects retrieved are “of exotic origin (non-human intelligence, whether extraterrestrial or unknown origin) based on the vehicle morphologies and material science testing and the possession of unique atomic arrangements and radiological signatures,” he said.

Doesn't this seem like science-fiction driven psyops? I am not a physicist or material scientist, so I would love to be corrected. Per my understanding, molecules from one end of the universe are the same as molecules from another end of the universe. I guess maybe they're doing some kind of element-wise dating or mass spectrometry, but again I am unsure how such an analysis would indicate non-Earth origins. What exactly is meant by "vehicle morphologies"? There are plenty of sci-fi designers who can dream up awesome, ridiculous vehicles that would seem like they're meant to be used by non-humans. I guess I am inclined to assume that these artifacts were placed by adversaries precisely for distracting with psyops.

Edit: iirc, these accounts seem inconsistent with Snowden's remark: https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/23/us/edward-snowden-joe-rogan-c...

Or I guess "hidden really well". I guess my question is why hide it? Is it really that big a deal?

[likeabbas]

> Doesn't this seem like science-fiction driven psyops?

This whole thing is *way* weirder than anything else I’ve ever experienced in my life.

This certainly could be one giant psy-op, but then we have to wonder why it would go so deep as to have people testify under oath to congress about it and convince the senators to unanimously pass legislation to force disclosure of “non-earth origin” technology to them. What’s the reason to go this deep just to confuse an adversary?

Then again, what if there is something way weirder going on here?

Regardless of what the outcome is, I think everyone should be in support of congress trying to get to the bottom of it.

[lusus_naturae]

Yes, agreed. It makes sense to support Congress to get this info.

[ftxbro]

> "There are only two outcomes from here: either he is lying and this is some big government psy-op, or he is telling the truth."

Nah there are other outcomes: they might be lying and it's not a big government psy-op, or they might be misinformed or deluded or caught up in a hysteria about things that are neither psy-ops nor the things that they say they are.

[likeabbas]

> they might be lying and it's not a big government psy-op

Why would he lie to congress under oath? He would go to jail.

> deluded or caught up in a hysteria about things that are neither psy-ops nor the things that they say they are.

Why would the senators make [this amendment](https://douglasjohnson.ghost.io/senate-intelligence-bill-giv...) to NDAA 2024 just 3 weeks after his allegations went public? The key portions being

> "a comprehensive list of all non-earth origin or exotic unidentified anomalous phenomena material" possessed and to make it available to the AARO director for "assessment, analysis, and inspection."

[AlexandrB]

> Why would he lie to congress under oath? He would go to jail.

This one had me rolling on the floor laughing. Remember when James Clapper lied to Congress about PRISM[1] and there were zero consequences? I'm pretty sure that, in practice, the consequences of lying to Congress are slightly less severe than those for parking illegally. Especially if you have friends in politics.

[1] https://apnews.com/article/business-33a88feb083ea35515de3c73...

[likeabbas]

I would argue the situation here is different. Clapper used politically adept language to avoid saying what surveillance capabilities the NSA possessed. Here, David Grusch has given specific program names, locations, and people involved with these programs and is alleging these programs have not been properly disclosed to congress for over 80 years. His claims were found credible and urgent by the ICIG which is why he was referred to the congressional intelligence committees. All of that, combined with Rubio saying other whistleblowers have corroborated Grusch's claims make this all the more serious.

[ftxbro]

I'm not trying to explain why he would lie to congress or why senators do things. I was just giving other options that I think are more likely than the dichotomy that you laid out.

If I'm honest your dichotomy reminds me of some evangelists who are like 'either this guy was literally God or so many clergy have been misinformed or lying to an absurdly implausible degree for centuries or millennia, checkmate atheists' I'm not saying you are making that exact argument, but that's how your dichotomy sounds to me.

[likeabbas]

I understand, and I'm trying to explain how your options don't make sense in the context of the senators' recent actions.

I take offense to your edit. I'm not being a religious zealot saying God has to exist. If you understood anything about the US security clearance system, you would know that everyone has to undergo a rigorous psychological evaluation every 5 years to keep their Top Secret SCI clearance. You can not be unwell and be an intelligence officer at the level of Grusch. The likelihood of him being mentally unfit for that job and lying under oath to congress about these claims is extremely low. Also, If he is intentionally lying, he will go to jail.

All of that plus what the senators have recently done, we have a limited set of options for what could be the case.

[ftxbro]

> "I take offense to your edit. I'm not being a religious zealot saying God has to exist. "

I take offense to your edit that takes offense to my edit. I'm not accusing you of being a religious zealot saying God has to exist. I had even gone out of my way in my post to clarify that, in case you had a hard time understanding analogies. At this point I have to imagine that you understand my point and you are just pretending to think that I am calling you a religious zealot as an excuse to get more offended.

[likeabbas]

No, I just don’t like being compared to someone believing something blind. If Grusch was alleging that there are undisclosed programs reverse engineering other country technology, it would be taken seriously. But the subject brings stigma and that’s what needs to change. We shouldn’t be afraid to investigate these claims just because they seem incredibly outlandish.

[Jolter]

> everyone has to undergo a rigorous psychological evaluation every 5 years to keep their Top Secret SCI clearance. You can not be unwell and be an intelligence officer at the level of Grusch.

You can, for up to five years.

Assuming that the evaluation actually catches whatever illness you might have.

[likeabbas]

Are you going to assume the IC Inspector General is unwell too since they referred Grusch’s claims to congress as being both urgent and credible?

[ftxbro]

> "You can not be unwell and be an intelligence officer at the level of Grusch."

OK but I think it's more likely that he's mistaken or misinformed or unwell or lying for some other reason, than that it's aliens or a psyop.

[likeabbas]

Again, why would congress include these provisions in the next NDAA if they didn’t think Grusch’s comments held enough weight?

[ftxbro]

I'm not surprised that congress told someone to make a list or that someone might give misinformed testimony to congress. I think those are more likely than aliens or psyop.

[likeabbas]

Why are you ignoring the fact that the senators have been convinced to add provisions regarding "non-earth origin" technology. That's a significant claim

[mydudeno]

> You can not be unwell and be an intelligence officer at the level of Grusch.

My man, any number of unwell ppl have occupied high level positions. Michael Flynn is nuttier than squirrel shit. F’in lunatic Trump held the very highest office. Point to any of the crazies that are associated with either of those raging assholes and it’s nothing but mental illnesses and outright crazy goals and ideas.

[likeabbas]

This situation may be a bit different. Trump was president and the clearance system begins and ends with his authority. He dictated Flynn and Kushner receipt Top Secret SCI clearances despite them not being able to pass the background checks.