[_kbh_]

> I don't think it is comparable, the invasion of Iraq was way worse.

You think the invasion of Iraq was worse than the rape and torture of civilians, including women and children?

And the summary execution of all civilians aged 16 and above?.

Are you okay? or just unaware of whats going on in Ukraine?.

[hutzlibu]

Well, my original point was the legal precedent. Invading another country without the need for self defense. (Or were there any indications, that Iraq was about to attack the US at all?) So at no point I said it is the same.

But if you want actual official numbers:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War

200 000 dead Iraq civilians

vs

9 000 in Ukraine

And regarding torture and rape, you might have missed Abu Ghraib and similar institutions?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_torture_and_priso...

[_kbh_]

> Well, my original point was the legal precedent. Invading another country without the need for self defense. (Or were there any indications, that Iraq was about to attack the US at all?) So at no point I said it is the same.

This legal precedent stuff is rubbish and just more justification of Russians brutal crimes. Not to mention that Russia was doing this brutal razing and raping of civilian centres far before the US invaded Iraq.

> And regarding torture and rape, you might have missed Abu Ghraib and similar institutions? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_torture_and_priso...

I didn't but I missed the part where they involved children.

[hutzlibu]

"I didn't but I missed the part where they involved children."

There certainly were also childs (<18) tortured in Iraq. Maybe I feel like digging up some sources.

But right at hand I have boys as sexslaves from afghanistan institutions set up, payed and defended by US forces (and those US soldiers who stood up against it, got problems)

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/21/world/asia/us-soldiers-to...

"This legal precedent stuff is rubbish and just more justification of Russians brutal crimes."

And what exactly is rubbish about it? Or do you think international law can (should) get established for everyone minus US?

The problem right now is exactly that russia is NOT isolated enough. They still can trade quite unrestricted. IF there would be a believable international law, the sanctions would work and russia would have to stop the war.

[CamperBob2]

9000, LOL. OK, Olga.

We identified and prosecuted the perpetrators of Abu Ghraib. What legal fate is in store for the butchers of Bucha?

[hutzlibu]

"We identified and prosecuted the perpetrators of Abu Ghraib. "

Partly. But yes, that is a difference between US and russia. Because there they got decorated.

"9000, LOL. OK, Olga."

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1293492/ukraine-war-casu...

So do you have better numbers?

Or in general, do you have actually intentions of being open to discussion, including the hypthetical posibility, that your initial position might be wrong? Because that is kind of the base for a normal debate.

[CamperBob2]

Even the agency reporting the numbers states that the figure isn't meaningful. "OHCHR specified that the real numbers could be considerably higher." You'd also want to account for the millions of displaced and homeless, of course. The destruction of the Kakhovka dam alone will likely cost more than 9,000 people their homes.

But go ahead, Boris, keep carrying water for the worst people on the planet. Be grateful to the US for making your job easier with the Iraq war... which, I might add, many of us protested vociferously without fear of imprisonment or exile. If it hadn't been for Iraq, you'd have to fall back on the "Nazi-aligned country with a Jewish president" excuse.

[hutzlibu]

You know, I did not expect a serious debate from post 1 of you, but I was curious if you would eventually have something to say besides insults. Apparently not much.

Because "considerably higher" than 9000 would still be way below 200 000, right?

Can you acknowledge that?

Because this is not an honest debate otherwise.

And about the insult that I am caring water for Putin. Well, you don't seem to read very well, what I wrote about him. In either case, he is 100% responsible for his actions. At no point did I deny that.

But the reasons enabling him to do his shit, are considerably more complex.

And the demolition of international law is a, or the big factor in my eyes. And if you cannot see the US part in this, then it seems this is, because you do want to see it.

And you know what, this is the same attitude and vibe I get when discussing with prowar russians.

But again, no the US is not on par with russia in terms of human rights abuse. (I never said anything like that.) But the nationalistic, black and white groupthink arguments - they sound pretty similar to me. Alone the fact, that you put me in the pro russia camp, just because I don't share your thinking - is very telling.

So maybe to give you something to think, I can repeat what I wrote elsewhere in this thread. If I would not have little children, I likely would have been in Ukraine as a volunteer.

Is this something a "Boris" would write? And spoiler alert, actually yes, because there are russian militias fighting for Ukraine. So maybe stop with Antirussian comments at some point? All you do with that, is pushing the russian population behind Putin. Because this is his narrative, that the west wants to destroy russia. So blanket antirussian policies and defamation of anything russian, are actually helping him.

[CamperBob2]

So you don't see even the slightest trace of bad faith in comparing a (disputed) figure of 200,000 deaths over 20 years with a figure of 9,000 deaths over 18 months which is acknowledged as an underestimate by the very agency that cites it?

I mean, I have little choice but to believe you when you say you're not on the side of the Russian government here -- and you're certainly right in that #NotAllRussians are to blame. I agree I need to be a bit more careful with language like that. So why are you adopting their propaganda arguments, specifically by dredging up the Iraq war to make an unprovoked invasion of a sovereign nation somehow less unacceptable? What do you gain from doing that? What point do you imagine you are making?

The Iraq invasion was an atrocity, an outrage that, as I said, many of us protested at the time. It has nothing whatsoever to do with current events in Ukraine. You might as well cite the Trail of Tears or the Tuskegee Experiment. Why even bring it up?