[hutzlibu]

You know, I did not expect a serious debate from post 1 of you, but I was curious if you would eventually have something to say besides insults. Apparently not much.

Because "considerably higher" than 9000 would still be way below 200 000, right?

Can you acknowledge that?

Because this is not an honest debate otherwise.

And about the insult that I am caring water for Putin. Well, you don't seem to read very well, what I wrote about him. In either case, he is 100% responsible for his actions. At no point did I deny that.

But the reasons enabling him to do his shit, are considerably more complex.

And the demolition of international law is a, or the big factor in my eyes. And if you cannot see the US part in this, then it seems this is, because you do want to see it.

And you know what, this is the same attitude and vibe I get when discussing with prowar russians.

But again, no the US is not on par with russia in terms of human rights abuse. (I never said anything like that.) But the nationalistic, black and white groupthink arguments - they sound pretty similar to me. Alone the fact, that you put me in the pro russia camp, just because I don't share your thinking - is very telling.

So maybe to give you something to think, I can repeat what I wrote elsewhere in this thread. If I would not have little children, I likely would have been in Ukraine as a volunteer.

Is this something a "Boris" would write? And spoiler alert, actually yes, because there are russian militias fighting for Ukraine. So maybe stop with Antirussian comments at some point? All you do with that, is pushing the russian population behind Putin. Because this is his narrative, that the west wants to destroy russia. So blanket antirussian policies and defamation of anything russian, are actually helping him.

[CamperBob2]

So you don't see even the slightest trace of bad faith in comparing a (disputed) figure of 200,000 deaths over 20 years with a figure of 9,000 deaths over 18 months which is acknowledged as an underestimate by the very agency that cites it?

I mean, I have little choice but to believe you when you say you're not on the side of the Russian government here -- and you're certainly right in that #NotAllRussians are to blame. I agree I need to be a bit more careful with language like that. So why are you adopting their propaganda arguments, specifically by dredging up the Iraq war to make an unprovoked invasion of a sovereign nation somehow less unacceptable? What do you gain from doing that? What point do you imagine you are making?

The Iraq invasion was an atrocity, an outrage that, as I said, many of us protested at the time. It has nothing whatsoever to do with current events in Ukraine. You might as well cite the Trail of Tears or the Tuskegee Experiment. Why even bring it up?

[hutzlibu]

"The Iraq invasion was an atrocity, an outrage that, as I said, many of us protested at the time. It has nothing whatsoever to do with current events in Ukraine. You might as well cite the Trail of Tears or the Tuskegee Experiment. Why even bring it up? "

Because there is so much talk from the US side about how russia has to pay for all their crimes, that they broke international law and Putin has to go to Den Haag, etc.

But to me - and as far as I am aware, actually most of the not NATO world - consider this as hypocrisy, when the USA never had to pay for their crimes and rather still have made it clear, that they consider themself above the international law, with the den hague invasion act.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Service-Members%27_Pr...

"What point do you imagine you are making?"

That an alternative to more escalation would be strengthening international law again and that would have to start with officially acknowledging guilt and accepting international war crime courts also for US personal.

In other words, actually start leading by example of being a beacon of human rights and rule of law for everyone.

If this would happen, then I can assure you, that way more countries would be joining the sanctions and military aid. Up to the point that Russia would be isolated to the point of giving up.

Because yes, quite some of the russian soft power comes from lies, propaganda and manipulation (Putin comes from the KGB after all). But this propaganda only works, if there is truth in it.

And in my opinion there is just way too much truth buried inside the russian propaganda. Remove the base for the propaganda and suddenly there would be no more soft power ammunition and a strong united front against russia and aggressors alike could form. But currently the USA and NATO are simply trusted enough, which is why russia can sell their oil and gas without much problems and continue the war til eternity as it seems. And sure, after 20 years civilian casualties will be way higher. But it does not have to come to this. Even russia can change again - because this is my main grieving point with the situation. Because I was born under russian occupation and I grew up with the russians parting in peace and a general expectation of working things out and trading freely to the west and the east. And some years it was like this. It came different and I certainly don't say or think this is all just western fault. But the west could have indeed done better. And I think this is mainly what we have to do - fixing our shit first and not messing with other peoples and countries affairs. But yes, pragmatically the military aid to Ukraine should also go on. But not as the only solution.

That was my point.

(and I am glad that it seems, that we still managed to get some kind of communication after all)