[_hypx]

You do realize that hydrogen storage is also already known? The boring method of storing hydrogen in underground salt domes and caverns is well understood. This is all way more practical than crisscrossing the oceans with HVDC lines. And it completely evades all of the political showstoppers that a global grid would run into.

[ben_w]

Hydrogen leaks, damages storage vessels and pipes, cryo more so.

> The boring method of storing hydrogen in underground salt domes and caverns is well understood. This is all way more practical than crisscrossing the oceans with HVDC lines

Ah, no. Salt caverns aren't available everywhere. Getting the hydrogen around isn't easier than getting the electricity the hydrogen makes around.

Also storage is normally my pro-hydrogen talking point when I'm facing a hydrogen skeptic and saying why it's not the totemic bad thing you're acting like you think I'm saying it is — but grid storage is however the not the actual core issue the non-totemic skeptics in this thread actually have, they're talking about other things.

(That said, props for linking to a home h2 storage solution in that other thread).

Heck, when people say hydrogen can't be stored, I point at the 4 GWh hypersonic storage tube that the US government regularly built for single use.

But that's not the substantive sticking point for rolling to doubt.

[_hypx]

For underground salt domes and caverns? Leaks and damaged vessels are a non-issue.

Salt caverns are everywhere. In fact this is how we store natural gas today.

And the capacity is truly insane. It is on the order of PWhs: https://www.pv-magazine.com/2020/06/16/hydrogen-storage-in-s...

Not to mention that hydrogen pipelines move energy more cheaply than cables: https://www.brinknews.com/could-hydrogen-replace-the-need-fo...

[ben_w]

> Salt caverns are everywhere.

Do you have a map showing this?

Because AFAICT, they're mainly found in the same places as oil reserves, which is definitely not everywhere.

(PWh isn't remotely surprising for me, let alone insane; it is however necessary scale for any such storage system).

> AD VAN WIJK: By pipeline. That’s the interesting thing: It is about 10 times cheaper to transport energy by a hydrogen pipeline than by an electric cable. That makes it possible to transport electricity very cheaply from somewhere like North Africa to the demand centers in Europe, for example.

First I've heard of that claim; thanks!

[_hypx]

Yes: https://energnet.eu/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/3-Hevin-Under...

And no, they are not the same as oil reserves. And it is the only technology that can realistically scale to PWh. Which is why it is the best and arguably only viable solution to the problem.

[ben_w]

Page 6?

Your sense of scale needs recalibration; overly that with a population density map, that's showing more than half the world population is nowhere near those.

> And it is the only technology that can realistically scale to PWh

It's one of many.

I really don't know why you are so willing to limit yourself at this stage to the best possible forecast for one of the least developed possibilities, while dismissing the ones which have both a large install base and long-term growth trends to extrapolate from.

I'm not going to put all my eggs (investments, small though they are) into one basket, regarding which I expect to "win". Nothing you said caused that, because it's usually me defending H2 from people who think it "can't ever lead" when the evidence is "hasn't been leading recently". You're making just as significant error but by dismissing everything except H2.

I'm reminded of the late 90s, when headlines proclaimed Wicca was the fastest growing religion, and my dad pointed out to me that going from 1 to 2 is a 100% growth rate.

[_hypx]

Most of the world has not had any geographic surveying of them. It's likely that there are everywhere. Look only at the US or Europe for proper maps.

There is an alternative to this: It's called nuclear power. But of course, renewable energy nutcases reject that too.

This is why I insult you people and think you are really stupid. Environmentalists regularly come around and demand radical action on climate change, only to undermine the solution at every step of the way and ultimately make the problem worse. They are as bad as climate change deniers.