[lacasito25]

> Like materialism — the view that I sort of work with, the idea that consciousness is a natural phenomenon and is somehow a property of material things like brains and bodies. That itself is probably not testable

So, then, you "believe" in materialism, even thought you cannot prove it.

There's a more obvious theory than materialism: everything is consciousness. You create material things, they do not exist outside of you.

[tsimionescu]

It's, like, all in our heads, man!

But to add a little more substance - your theory is something we all learn is probably false at around two-three weeks after birth if I remember correctly. Somewhere around that time we discover object permanence, and start understanding that the rest of the world keeps existing even when we're not aware of it: it's all a real thing, not a product of our consciousness.

It's especially strange to put consciousness in charge of creating the whole world when it isn't even involved in half the stuff happening in our own bodies.

[perfmode]

have you ever experienced anything outside of your conscious experience?

how do you know there is a world outside?

and not phenomena arising within your conscious experience?

if you close your eyes, you will find a consciousness without end

open your eyes

& these very words arise within your conscious experience

and when you close your eyes, only consciousness remains

[tsimionescu]

Yes, of course. I discover things changing in my body every time I look again. And whenever I interact with the world, I discover it has changed significantly since I last interacted.

Of course, since I can't observe anything except what I'm observing right now, I could conclude that I'm creating those observations. But I have noticed time and time again that the world largely looks like the same whether I observe it or not. Also, occasionally things that I didn't observe suddenly happen to me, in a way which is consistent only with them having originated outside myself (for example, a ball hits me in the back of the head).

[perfmode]

Do you perceive the ball hit your head through direct experience? Or is it mediated through the interpretation of the mind?

[tsimionescu]

This question makes no sense. There is no distinction between and my mind, so experiences of the mind are by definition direct experiences.

Either way, if you're claiming I'm just a figment of your imagination, this conversation really makes very little sense, and of course there is no proof I can bring that would convince you. The existence of a world independent of our own minds is a pre-requisite for any meaningful conversation.

[perfmode]

how did you come to this conclusion that there is no difference between you and your mind?

would you classify this as a belief? or as an assumption? or as a fact?

could you somehow test this?

[rad88]

That hardly strikes me as more obvious, to say the least.

But then again perhaps no thing has ever struck me at all.

[jmole]

What is the difference between “everything is consciousness” and solipsism?

[perfmode]

solipsism is a sort of self centeredness

while consciousness lacks a center and lacks a self

[gpvos]

Why would that be obvious at all? It runs counter to all of my experience.