[EatingWithForks]

I agree we shouldn't stand for shitty employers. But, especially right now, it can be hard for a dev to find a job. Especially if the dev has dependents taking up time for take home tests etc. Or if they have a visa the employer needs to manage.

I suggest we should have something like an actor's guild instead, where a floor of basic protections are necessary but there's no ceiling on payment and benefits.

[atlasunshrugged]

What's the difference between that and a union?

[slg]

There isn't any. The Screen Actors Guild is a union that merged with the American Federation of Television and Radio Artists union to make what the grandparent comment is likely referring to as the "actor's guild". They are a traditional labor union and member of the AFL-CIO. They are also seemingly poised to go on strike at the end of next month.

Often times when someone criticizes the idea of unions, it is because they don't fully understand their purpose, flexibility, and flaws. For example, that comment could imply that unions somehow cap payments and benefits, but that isn't some universal truth of unions (that person also could just be using guild as a synonym for union, but that isn't necessarily true and it doesn't appear to be how they're using it). Unions negotiate on behalf of their members. If the union members don't want caps on compensation, the union can negotiate for no caps.

[ghaff]

And it may be worth noting that "aspiring actor" is probably not considered the epitome of someone on a guaranteed safe and lucrative career path. But it does guarantee that if they can land a job, they're going to get paid scale (~$1k/day I believe).

[busterarm]

The film and television unions are a tough nut to crack. On the west coast, that's almost all there is and if you're working you will be in the union easy. Unless you do youtube/streaming content and most of that is non-union.

On the east coast, you're going to be working probably for 10 years before you can get into your union and it's an uphill struggle the whole way.

And union or not, you're only going to get work if people like working with you. One day with a bad attitude and you can find yourself unable to get hired by anyone. Film and TV is long hours and a stressful environment and nobody wants to work with anyone who makes the day harder.

[Scoundreller]

Is it because people get in the union on the west coast and then move east?

Or are you just stuck in the local that you started in (and would then definitely be unwilling to relocate once you’re in?

(Not sure how the regionalization works if the unions are national)

[Buttons840]

Is it realistically possible to be a actor or screen writer without joining this union? If not, then isn't the union itself a monopoly and a form of tyranny?

[jazzyjackson]

You can work with independent studios but you're not going to get distribution.

Tyranny is a pretty hefty word for "can't get a particular job without agreeing to the rules of the employer"

[Buttons840]

What if a group of distributed "mainstream" (not sure the right term?) writers are unhappy with the rules of their employment, including the rules of their union. Are they able to organize and collectively bargain with both their employers and their union? In other words, when it comes to these large unions that dominate an industry, are sub-groups within that union able to organize and collectively bargain, forming a sub-union of sorts? My understanding is that large unions make it harder for people within the union to organize and collectively bargain, which is, of course, quite ironic.

[slg]

Unions are democratic entities. A subgroup in that union would need to either directly lobby union leadership or convince their peers. This can include running for union leadership positions themselves.

It works just like democracy does at larger scales. I can't just declare my property its own new state with me as governor just because I don't like the political opinions of the state's leadership. I can however leave that state or leave the country entirely just like a person can leave the union. However, there are obvious repercussions for that decision.

[ncallaway]

The actor’s guild is a union.

There are lots of different unions with lots of different structures. This person is saying we should have a union with a structure similar to that union.

[Animats]

Yes. The Animation Guild, IATSE Local 839, is a good model for a programmer's union.[1] TAG represents animators at Disney, Sony, and some lesser studios. (Mostly Disney now, because Disney acquired everybody else.)

This is the current Master Agreement.[2] It specifies minimum wages, but not maximums. "Nothing in this Agreement shall prevent any individual from negotiating and obtaining from the Producer better conditions and terms of employment than those herein provided."

See section 5, "Hours". "Time worked on the employee's sixth workday of the workweek shall be paid at one and one-half (1½) times the hourly rate provided herein for such employee's classification. Time worked on the employee's seventh workday of the workweek shall be paid at two (2) times the hourly rate provided herein for such employee's classification. Minimum call for the sixth and seventh days shall be four (4) hours. ... All time worked in excess of fourteen (14) consecutive hours (including meal periods) from the time of reporting to work shall be Golden Hours and shall be paid at two (2) times the applicable hourly rate provided herein for such employee's classification."

These are standard union terms in Hollywood. This is why film scheduling is a discipline but software development scheduling is a joke. Hollywood has crunches, and they hit the producer's budget hard. So planning goes into avoiding crunches.

Despite significant efforts, TAG has been unable to unionize game developers.

[1] https://animationguild.org/

[2] https://animationguild.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/2018-2...

[shagie]

The hours bit gets interesting since that also states that animators are hourly rather than salaried.

If you work less than 40 hours in a week, your paycheck is likewise adjusted.

You won't be able to work a 9/80 schedule since the payroll week starts at midnight on Sunday morning. Nor would you necessarily be granted permission.

If you work 6 hours on one day because you were out for some reason rather than 8 hours, you will not necessarily be able to make it up on other days - or even be granted permission to work overtime (because that would be time and a half pay) to compensate.

As programmers we tend to take advantage of the "if all the work gets done we get paid." Get into work at 10 am, leave at 4 pm.

Under the hours provision in that agreement I suspect many programmers would chafe a bit. Under these (and similar) provisions people are butt in a seat for 40 hours a week if they want to be fully paid. Taking a sick child to the doctor on a day for 2 hours means you will only be paid 38 hours for that week.

[snowwrestler]

Nothing, it is a union.

[jylam]

"But, especially right now, it can be hard for a dev to find a job. "

What ?

[sveme]

A couple of friends and myself got laid off in Germany a short while ago - was really tough finding a new job. Very different compared to a year ago. Same for friends from the US and especially the UK.

[brokensegue]

are you unaware of major layoffs at major employers?

[Insanity]

There are plenty of jobs (and recruiters) still reaching out. Just for smaller companies than the tech giants.

[mortenjorck]

As someone laid off from a smaller company, I’ve been competing for those jobs with the people laid off from the tech giants - for almost half a year now.

[the_only_law]

Same here. I think this month marks over 6months. What’s stranger is I don’t even see jobs in job boards anymore, at least not ones that don’t look shady. Most of what I see now on say… LinkedIn is spam postings from iffy looking recruiting firms and consultancies.

[Alupis]

A lot of previous mega-corp SE's have unrealistic ideas of what normal salaries should be, leading to them being rejected based off salary demand, or rejecting offers themselves.

No, you aren't going to be paid $450k a year to work on our website... that is fantasy land.

There's so many tech jobs available at all sizes of companies, including mega-corps you've never heard of - they're just not as sexy as your FAANG's & co.

[speeder]

Nobody is reaching out to me... and I don't even see job openings I can send my resume anymore.

For example if go to "who is hiring" and do a search for c++ I find almost nothing. The few c++ Jobs that do exist require you to already live nearby because they can't offer relocation assistance or VISA sponsorship.

Meanwhile same search years ago I would find plenty of cool openings to send my resume to.

I am not even getting recruiter spam anymore where people offer me jobs that are unrelated to my skillset.

[sgerenser]

I was looking for a job 2-3 months ago and the market wasn’t great, but I got solid leads for C++ dev positions at a number of companies. Ended up calling off further contact since I luckily secured a position fairly quickly, but if you’re interested shoot me an e-mail (address in profile) and I’d be happy to forward you the details of the companies/positions.

[brewdad]

There are plenty of job postings. I'm doubtful as to how many of them urgently need to be filled.

[nawgz]

Are you implying that companies that grew by a factor of two during COVID laying off 10% of their staff means that software is no longer eating the world?

There are endless dev jobs, the market's a little softer for pay thanks to megacap collusion once again, but I see an endless list of jobs online...

[squeaky-clean]

Have you tried actually job hunting at the moment? The listings don't respond.

[nawgz]

Haha, recruiters have that problem with me. But fair enough, perhaps it's also more location dependent.

[devnullbrain]

They're already hiring again

[michaelt]

If ExampleCo laid off 1000 javascript developers last week and is trying to hire 20 ML developers this week, then it's true to say they're hiring again, but it's also true that it can be hard for a dev to find a job.

[pizzaknife]

just curious - is there a real world scenario where a company has 1k "javascript" developers and can also lay them off without crippling their position in a given market?

follow up - what market and which company(FAANG counts but must be a single org)?

edit: down votes. look i get the math but who laid off 1k js devs?

[edgyquant]

Those have been mostly non-dev roles

[moffkalast]

> "But, especially right now, it can be hard for a dev to find a comically overpaid FAANG job."

I think that's what they meant