[mcv]

Also, WW2 started with Germany and Russia invading Poland together.

Because Hitler later betrayed Stalin, and Russia did by far the most work in defeating Nazi Germany, we have since learned to see Russia as one of the good guys in WW2, but they didn't start out that way; they were initially one of the aggressors, invading Poland, the Baltic states, and Finland.

[justsomehnguy]

> invading Poland

Ah, the convenience of ignoring Munich Agreement.

>> In 1938, the Soviet Union was allied with France and Czechoslovakia. By September 1939, the Soviets were to all intents and purposes a co-belligerent with Nazi Germany, due to Stalin's fears of a second Munich Agreement with the Soviet Union replacing Czechoslovakia. Thus, the agreement indirectly contributed to the outbreak of war in 1939.[87]

[mcv]

I'm not ignoring that at all, but it's quite a leap from misguided appeasement to arguing that that justified the invasions of Poland, the Baltic States and Finland.

But the whole run up to WW2 definitely shows the folly of appeasing aggressors by rewarding their aggression. A lesson that's definitely relevant today.

[justsomehnguy]

> but it's quite a leap from misguided appeasement

There were quite a lot of actions which guided the Soviets up to 1939 and I can't say these were 'misguided appeasement'. It takes a lot to convince someone to work with people whose anthem contains 'Kam'raden, die Rotfront und Reaktion erschossen / Marschier'n im Geist in unser'n Reihen mit.'

[hutzlibu]

"It takes a lot to convince someone to work with people whose anthem contains 'Kam'raden, die Rotfront und Reaktion erschossen / Marschier'n im Geist in unser'n Reihen mit.' "

Not much, if there is something to gain. Because diplomats did the talking and they are usually disconnected from the goons on the ground doing that singing. And the sovjets had their songs and goons and gulags and NKVD too, as you well know.

And I am not sure if you actually understand that song, because it just says the Nazis think about the spirits of their comrades who were killed by the Rotfront, (german communist) and by the Reaktion, conservative (monarchistic) forces opposing the Nazis. (not the other way around, like you seemed to have understood)

And they were. But of course by that time, way more Rotfront people were murdered by the Nazis and they probably also sang about that, so you likely could have choosen a better song. This song lets one rather question, why the nazis could bring themself to work with the sovjets at all and the answer is the same: because there was something to gain.

Otherwise this discussion sounds to me like a discussion about what is better, plague or cholera?

It was 2 confronting totalitarian empires, with total disregard for human life, unless it happened to be an important party member. And in the use of terror against anyone opposing, they were pretty similar.

[justsomehnguy]

> because there was something to gain

Or there was something to lose if remain in the current status quo.

> diplomats did the talking and they are usually disconnected from the goons on the ground doing that singing

Sorry?

>> [...] Goebbels' propaganda created what became one of the Nazi Party's central martyr-figures of their movement. He officially declared Wessel's march, renamed as the "Horst-Wessel-Lied" ("Horst Wessel Song"), to be the Nazi Party anthem [...] The "Horst Wessel Song" was sung by the SA at the funeral, and was thereafter extensively used at party functions, as well as sung by the SA during street parades.

Were the Soviet diplomats deaf?

> because it just says the Nazis think about the spirits of their comrades who were killed by the Rotfront

:rolleyes: Some people pertain the idea what the Soviets were totally clueless about how evil Nazis were[0] or what the Soviets were totally on board with Nazis in their evilness[1]. Sometimes both at the same time.

This song is a clear evidence what both the nazis and the communists were a 'natural enemies', what there is no fucking way the Soviets didn't knew that (see [1] again) and what if you find them working together then for the reasons you should look not at them but for their environment.

[0] rare, but I've seen those folks

[1] this is the default, especially if the history knowledge ends with a parroted response about Molotov-Ribbentrop

[hutzlibu]

So you were aware, that the lyrics you cited were no direct threat to the sowjets?

Apart from that, of course they were natural enemies. Mein Kampf and many other sources spoke about the concept of conquering land in the east.

And the sowjets wanted the world revolution. Also documented.

So why pick that example then?

Because with that, you could also "proof" that the Nazis were mortal enemies to the conservative forces in germany. Were they? As far as I know, not really and surely not as long as the nazis were successfull.

So I really do suspect, that you were not aware, but cannot admit a misstake now, like you cannot admit any wrongdoing by the sowjets. Sorry, but this is not a base for me for serious debate.

[mcv]

None of this changes the fact that Poland was invaded by both the Nazis and the Soviets. They may have hated each other ideologically, but politically, they were aligned at that moment. And even if they weren't sufficiently aligned by your standards, the Soviet Union still invaded 5 countries that didn't do anything to threaten the USSR, making the Soviets one of the aggressors of the war.