[hans0l074]

Did you get a chance to checkout Horizon: Forbidden West (the sequel to Horizon: Zero Dawn)? I have been gaming for a few decades now, and this is the most impressive technical achievement I have seen in a game. For me, everything else pales in comparison after this experience (The studio develops their own game engine Decima)

[rjzzleep]

It looks beautiful, but I tortured myself through zero dawn and then dropped forbidden West an hour in. The story is dumb, the dialogues are a nightmare and I feel like the more they try to paint the female protagonist as some kind of strong woman the worse it made the whole thing. Instead of making her seem strong she's like a petty person, constantly complaining and badmouth everything. The game mechanics make it hard to overlook the terrible storytelling, constant boring grind with an extremely boring skill system.

But it's not exclusive to her. All of dialogues are silly. If you had Horizon with the script writers of God of War (2018) even with the boring game mechanics, it would probably be a masterpiece.

[Gareth321]

> The story is dumb, the dialogues are a nightmare and I feel like the more they try to paint the female protagonist as some kind of strong woman the worse it made the whole thing. Instead of making her seem strong she's like a petty person, constantly complaining and badmouth everything.

The Mary Sue trope has infected Hollywood and now the gaming industry. Every woman needs to be perfect; flawless. Every man serves only one purpose: make the Mary Sue appear even more perfect. At this stage I'm impressed when media doesn't include a Mary Sue. I'm really disappointed to see this game is similarly compromised, as I was looking forward to playing it one day.

[AlexandrB]

I really didn't get the vibe that there's some kind of pandering going on with Zero Dawn (haven't played the sequel). I would also note that it's extremely common for video game characters to be Mary Sues, probably because they're often a stand-in for the player. In this regard, Aloy is not particularly different than a Gordon Freeman or a Link. Perhaps that's an indictment of how poor the writing in Zero Dawn is, but it's not unusual.

[trafficante]

The character writing in Forbidden West is largely of the same quality as Zero Dawn: serviceable with a few outstanding characters (none of whom are the MC, unfortunately).

I feel like the reason it’s suddenly become an issue is that the quality of the Main Story took quite a drop in the sequel and it’s easier for people to pick out and criticize examples of poor characterization.

And to be fair, I never thought Forbidden West would be able to match/exceed the fantastic Zero Dawn plot - since ZD relied on a fantastic sci-fi premise that couldn’t be easily repeated once the “truth” had been revealed. But going with cackling immortal demigods dressed like a low budget episode of Star Trek: TOS was a poor choice for the middle act of a trilogy.

What’s really strange is how the new FW expansion lays out more breadcrumbs for the closing act of the trilogy that honestly should have been part of the second act (eg: VAST SILVER and the interactions between Old World AIs). I’d be less disappointed in the mustache twirling, scene eating, villains in sparkly spandex if they were the final remnants of humanity’s ancient hubris that had to be dealt with to bring lasting peace.

[rjzzleep]

Completely different from Link. It's not even in the same dimension.

One character that might be similar is that guy in Devil May Cry 5 and I find him equally cringe, I'm glad I didn't actually pay for it.

[yamtaddle]

There's a really good story reason why she's Special and the Only Possible Savior. Much better than "Darth Vader was your daddy" or "you're the Boy Who Lived because your mom loved you a bunch and... that's it, that's all" at least.

[EDIT] As for those complaining about her personality, the sequel actually kinda explores that in some... interesting ways.

[Gareth321]

> Much better than "Darth Vader was your daddy"

That particular twist might seem contrived, especially by today's standards, but Luke had a story arc. He didn't appear in the world as a perfect being. He made many mistakes and earned his redemption and victory.

Similarly, Harry Potter had a story arc. He began completely unskilled and naive. He made many mistakes on his journey to competence.

Both of these examples are the antithesis of the Mary Sue trope. It sounds like you're confirming that Aloy was born a Mary Sue, and didn't have to earn the mantle like any good story arc demands.

[ska]

I think this is an idiosyncratic use of the trope “Mary Sue”, which isn’t really gendered, or wasn’t originally. Unless the usage has drifted a lot more that I’m aware of?

[FumblingBear]

I think there may be some linguistic drift here, because I've always heard of a male "Mary Sue" referred to as "Gary Stu".

[ska]

Huh, interesting. I think I recall running into that one also, but not consistently. The mis-match with GP usage are deeper than re-gendering the name though. Seems to me Mary Sue/Gary Stu is fundamentally about projection/wish fulfillment on the part of author (or in this case, player?), and has no real opinion on gender roles/relations/etc. GP seems to be adding a bunch of that; I’ve no opinion on whether or not the text (game) supports that take, but seems a bit orthogonal to the Mary Sue concept.

[Gareth321]

There are certainly examples of men embodying the Mary Sue trope. I'm highlighting the recent trend of women in the role.

[ESMirro]

Do you think you would feel the same about Aloy if she were presented as a male character?

As the protagonist of the story she’s privy to information and intelligence far beyond the knowledge of much of the rest of the cast. She’s treated as a literal outsider for much of the early story and is often held back from completing vital goals by archaic and arbitrary belief systems throughout both games.

The character is arguably too nice and accommodating to those blocking progress, given the situation, yet your complaint is fairly common.

[rjzzleep]

Absolutely yes. Maybe there are male game characters like that, but I clearly don't remember them. Do you have any examples?

You can be snarky by the way. She is not snarky. She's just superior to the "dumb plebs" and whiny at the same time.

I can't currently think of stupid annoying completely superior male protagonists, but they are quite common in certain types of anime. If the comments on streaming platforms are any indication on their popularity, for the most part, unless the story is extreme parody, they are usually universally disliked.

[ESMirro]

I don’t really agree with your interpretation of the character, I would argue she’s more understandably frustrated and desperate given the context of the story than whiny. To me that makes her a more realistic and well-rounded character. She’s certainly nothing close to an anime cliche even at the characters more stubborn or impulsive moments.

Edward Kenway (Assassins Creed: Black Flag) is a similar character that comes to mind, though I concede it is difficult to think of many open world video-game characters that deviate from blank-slate people pleasers.

[nikanj]

I did the same. Aloy is supposed to be the chosen hero who destroys massive killing machines with just a stick, but instead she’s stuck dealing with a petty bureaucrat who refuses to open a gate.

PS: I tried shooting the dude, to see if that works. He’s bulletproof because railroads and scripted events

[andrewingram]

Horizon: Forbidden West is an amazing technical achievement, I just wish I had found it more enjoyable, instead it was "fine". Elden Ring coming out 2 weeks later kinda made me forget all about it - it gave me a feeling I haven't felt playing games in decades that I had been really missing.

[sodapopcan]

I felt the same. I came late to Zero Dawn playing it 5 years after it came out. My first Zelda was the original Zelda (I was 7 when it came out) and Zero Dawn is the closest I ever came to that same feeling as an adult. I don't know the siblings comments are on about—I usually don't really care about the story, though I found myself super curious to find out what was going on the whole time and worried less about what kind of person Aloy was.

[capableweb]

> The studio develops their own game engine Decima

Death Stranding (Hideo Kojima's latest game) also uses Decima and is a nice showcase as well, runs like a dream on even the Steam Deck.

[nicolapcweek94]

Death Stranding on the PS4 is the last time I remember being truly immersed in the world the game is presenting - in a non-Nintendo game.

The first time you go out of the city, the world just opens up to you and the soundtrack just gets more and more calming and you're left with Sam, the cargo and the target. It's just... wonderful.

Of course, the same exact thing happened this morning in the first few minutes of Tears of the Kingdom. Nintendo seems to get this right way more often than everyone else.

[Scaevolus]

Curiously, Death Stranding's PC port is much better optimized than Horizon: Zero Dawn's port.