[second_brekkie]

It's not surprising that both the cars have the same vulnerability as kia and hyundai are owned by the same parent company.

Its also not unsurprising it was the Korean car manufacturers with these security defects.

In Korea people have 0 converns about their car being stolen. Theft in general is seen as so low a risk that people leave their car windows open a crack in the summer so the car stays ventilated. When the cars are designed by people who live in a society like that, it's not surprising they have a blind spot when it comes to car security.

Edit: hyundai has a majority stake in kia, they dont outright own it, but it's basically as good as. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyundai_Motor_Company

[xeromal]

I grew up in Georgia (the state) and besides Atlanta, it is still very much that way. When I stop by my grandparents house, if they're not home I'll just walk on in and pour myself some tea while I wait or watch TV. Their neighbor mows their yard if none of the family can make it over to do it.

Even only 40 mins from Atlanta, people still do that. I guess you call it a high-trust society? It's really only in the big American cities where that trust goes missing.

[busterarm]

Moved from NYC to South Carolina and the culture shock is real.

Doors aren't locked. Neighbors help each other out with stuff like mowing, or bringing bins up/down driveways on trash day. No words are exchanged about it either.

I removed the rust and repainted my mailbox this weekend and then went around the neighborhood to do the same for others while I had spare time and spare paint left.

This is what I moved here for. No way will I stop working remote and go back.

[xeromal]

Welcome to Appalachia. We have many issues but we get a couple of things right.

[busterarm]

I'm in Midlands SC (and some time in Lowcountry before it). Technically we're just outside of Appalachia, but yeah the attitude applies.

Heck, half of our state seems to be from Southern Ohio anyway!

[xeromal]

Funny how that works. A lot of people from Appalachia and the Deep South migrated to Ohio and the midwest for jobs in the early 1900s

[askin4it]

By and large true, but there are some sketchy rural places, and some rural places that are safe but not friendly....such as the place I moved back when I assumed all rural people were neighborly.

[busterarm]

No doubt. And honestly where I am at wouldn't be considered rural. There are farms 5 minutes down the road from me but we're comfortably suburban.

One thing people need to keep in mind these days is that some folks seek out the most rural places because they don't want to be bothered. Some of them have something to hide too.

[qup]

Can confirm, I don't own a key to my own home. I bought it without a key and I've never thought to get one.

My neighbor gave me the code to his safe (full of gold coins), "just in case."

[funnymony]

You should not reveal that you know the code and especially the content of neighbour’s safe. Your physical surroundings might be safe, but internet is not.

[qup]

My physical surroundings are not safe, per se. My location doesn't determine my vulnerability. Anyone can attack anyone for any reason.

But I agree with your comment's sentiment. I considered it, but only after the edit period was up. I generally consider myself anonymous here, which actually isn't true.

Thanks for taking the time.

[xeromal]

I'm sure your neighbor trusts that you'll let their heirs/widow access to the coins should the need arise. Life is that much better when you can trust people like that.

[agnosticmantis]

Maybe I misread the thread, but I’d find it a bit surprising (though not unlikely) that they would trust their neighbors more than their widow and heirs. Maybe they’re close friends that happen to be neighbors too, but then being neighbors would be a bit of a red herring.

[Dalewyn]

I'm going to lay it out flat with you: Family relations are shit. There are tons of toes that should not be stepped on, there are "we're family" reasonings that might as well be under-the-table dealings you need to keep track of, if inheritances are on the line then who knows who has a knife ready to stab you in the back.

Friends and neighbours by contrast are platonic, they are relatively simpler relationships. In fact, because they are so simple, there is much more value in trust and honesty because anyone who is dishonorable will instantly lose that relationship. Family relations aren't like that because most relationships can't be easily deleted.

As the saying goes, keep your friends close and your enemies closer. Your closest relationships are your family.

[busterarm]

This isn't to insult the professions of people who show up to your house in emergencies, but elderly folks are known to hide cash away and more than once have I heard of situations where first responders tossed a person's house looking for valuables.

Giving a trusted neighbor access and information about the contents is to protect those things for your heirs -- or to get you out of a jam.

[xeromal]

I generally operate in life assuming the best intentions out of everyone unless proven otherwise. I don't try looking for an ulterior motive

[PaulHoule]

Many people in upstate NY live in houses without doors that lock. (If somebody is going to travel a long way to your house and there are no witnesses they can just smash down the door anyway.)

On the other hand, despite being the home of anti-gun crusaders such as Mike Bloomberg, I’d reckon that half of the houses in upstate NY have a loaded gun stashed somewhere around the bed. I would bear that in mind if attempting any sort of home invasion.

[aintgonnatakeit]

These are excellent for murdering folks who accidentally turn into the wrong driveway.

[qup]

Locks?

[grupthink]

Mentioning safety in Korea is irrelevant. Kia and Hyundai cars in Canada (and other countries) are sold with an immobilizer, and don't have this ignition switch security vulnerability prevalent in the U.S. model.

Additionally, TikTok must be scrutinized/penalized for distributing this "educational" material. Their algos have a strong influence on teens. This content doesn't appear to exist on Youtube (I just did a quick search). Meanwhile, in China, you are censored for merely sharing photos of Winnie the Pooh on Douyin.

[croes]

Penalized for showing an exploit?

If someone posts an exploit on Github and it's taken down people get upset. This is the same and Kia and Hyundai would do nothing about it without the publicity they got from the viral TikTok.

Could be worse and insurance companies claim the owner left the car open so it's their fault the car was stolen.

[concordDance]

Penalising letting people freely communicate seems like a cure worse than the disease.

[brokenmachine]

Yes, we should censor and prosecute people like China does for revealing unpalatable truths.

That's sure to solve our problems with corporations that have been disincentivized to include basic safety mechanisms because of inadequate regulations and/or corporate lobbying.

I'm reminded of the joke headline (usually about mass shootings):

'No Way to Prevent This', Says Only Nation Where This Regularly Happens.

[toast0]

Where I live, some people don't lock their car doors, and some people leave the keys in their car...

But I don't understand what closing the windows all the way vs leaving them open a crack does for security? Are car windows that much more secure when fully closed? When I'm in sketchy neighborhoods, I expect people to be walking around with slim jims or breaking windows anyway, so a crack doesn't seem like a big deal?

[djaychela]

If the window is cracked open, you can usually get a tool in that will allow you to unlock the car from the inside, as you would if you were inside the car. You can then get in without any noise.

Source: I used to hang out with people who knew car thieves when I was much younger (very early 90s). I knew the area's worst car thief by name, and he would tell you how skilled he was at any opportunity. He always had a thin piece of metal with a hooked end on him (fitted down his jacket arm) for this purpose.

[blincoln]

The window doesn't need to be cracked open to use a "slim jim", at least on older vehicles.

I once accidentally locked myself out of the 2000 Honda Civic I used to own. The engine was still running, and I didn't want it to run out of gas or be late to work. I popped the driver's side door window trim off so I could see how the mechanism worked, and then improvised a "slim jim" out of some wire from my fence. It was disappointingly easy.

[XorNot]

I mean you can also just the break the window, which is what happened to my rental in Hawaii so someone could steal the empty backpack inside. $350 I could've saved had I just left the windows open.

[HeyLaughingBoy]

A friend of ours drove her mother's car here and accidentally locked the keys inside. Made a call to the local police station and a deputy showed up and opened the car in less than a minute.

[ferongr]

This isn't true for any modern car. Even my 2006 VAG shitbox has a double locking feature, where locking the doors from the outside disables the handles on the interior and the unlock switches.

[hotpotamus]

What? Do they double as prisoner transport vehicles? I'd keep one of those safety hammers in my car if it had such a system.

[ferongr]

It's a pretty standard feature here in Europe. In any case, if you've locked the doors from the outside, there should be no reason for the internal handles or unlock switches to be operational.

[toast0]

I guess Europeans never stop in at a store real quick while someone is in the car, and lock the doors while in the store?

Really, disabling the inside handles when there could be a person inside the car sounds like a deathtrap.

[hotpotamus]

What if there's someone in the car?

[Gordonjcp]

When I lived in a particularly sketchy part of Glasgow about 20 years ago, I lost the keys for my car. It was an old but quite nice (and fast) Citroën CX, so I was a bit worried that I'd dropped them somewhere and someone would use them to steal the car.

I'd been running around in my work van for a week or so, before - by chance - I parked up beside the Citroën, where I saw the keys hanging from the driver's door.

They'd been hanging in the door all week. No-one had touched it.

[tshaddox]

Yeah, I don’t get why leaving your car windows cracked is supposed to be indicative. I’ve done that even in parts of the Bay Area that are infamous for smash and grabs. They’ll either break your window and be gone 3 seconds later, or they won’t. The cracked window won’t change anything.

[vachina]

Some cracks are big enough for whole hands to get inside to grab the door handle or valuables.

[lamontcg]

> But I don't understand what closing the windows all the way vs leaving them open a crack does for security?

Because security is about having slightly higher security than the other person.

It is a game of "you don't have to outrun the bear / swim faster than the shark, you just have to be faster than the other person".

And open car window lets someone easily get in without breaking the glass and attracting attention and the cracked open window may give them the idea to try it in the first place.

The locks on your door are also nearly useless against someone with any lock picking skill at all, and your windows can probably be easily broken, but thieves are more likely to come in through an unlocked door or open window.

And these days with immobilizers, the cars that have them aren't often being stolen by hacking the CANbus, they're being stolen because people leave them idling in the driveway with the fob inside the car and the thief just hops in and drives off--possibly with the kid in the backseat.

If you lock your doors, roll your windows up and don't leave your keys in the car you will have left problems with theft and burglary. You won't eliminate it, but that doesn't mean those precautions don't work at all. Security isn't a binary either-or where you either have perfect security or none at all.

[toast0]

> Because security is about having slightly higher security than the other person.

I get that, but I just don't see the security disadvantage of having a 1 cm gap between the top of the glass and the bottom of the window frame; that's what I'm asking about.

[lamontcg]

> And open car window lets someone easily get in without breaking the glass and attracting attention and the cracked open window may give them the idea to try it in the first place.

[brokenmachine]

If the car's locked with the window a bit down, they can't use the handle to get in.

They'd still need to break the glass.

[nulbyte]

> Theft in general is seen as so low a risk that people leave their car windows open a crack in the summer so the car stays ventilated.

This isn't just a Korean thing. I'm in the states, and I've done this with every car I've had. Including the Jeep Wrangler I have now, when I don't have the top down.

[second_brekkie]

Cracking open the window isn't a Korean thing, no. But feeling safe to do it literally anywhere in the country (including deprevated areas) is something you can do in Korea and I'd warn against in the states.

My point is that when the people designing the cars consciously or unconsciously don't think of theft as a concern, their cars might be easier to steal.

[yongjik]

Another example is when Samsung aired an ad for their phones in the UK last year, featuring a woman jogging on 2am in the city. Apparently, that ruffled some feathers, with people questioning how Samsung could be so tone-deaf about women's safety.

Except that a woman jogging in Seoul's street on 2am would be a totally believable sight: I wouldn't personally recommend it, but it wouldn't look too out of place.

[rahmeero]

My business partner is an attractive young woman living in Seoul. I am based in California. She and I have regular phone meetings at 2 am her time. She uses our meeting time to jog around the city while talking. She's been doing this routine for 2 years and never had a problem.

When I visited Seoul, we went all over the city and I realized after 4 days that I had not seen a single policemen nor heard a single police siren. Seoul is 25 million people. I live in a "safe" California town of 60,000 people and see policemen all the time, and hear sirens regularly. I would caution any friend from jogging at 2am here.

In coffee shops in Seoul, people leave their wallets and laptops unattended while they go to the bathroom. By contrast, in my hometown in California, thieves have walked in, punched customers, grabbed laptops out of the customer's hands and run.

A very different world -- not just Seoul, but other cities in Asia.

[Glawen]

> Apparently, that ruffled some feathers, with people questioning how Samsung could be so tone-deaf about women's safety.

In my time, at 2am UK streets were full of drunk men and women. Is it safer to be drunk than practicing sport? Did it change so much in 10 years or is it a safety fantasm?

[andrewmcwatters]

It reminds me of how Audi puts different horns on cars shipped to India.

[saagarjha]

Hopefully they’re quieter…

[flangola7]

Why would horns need to be different for India?

[swalling]

Indian drivers honk incessantly. It’s widely believed that driving there without honking frequently is unsafe, because concepts like lanes and signaling are… loosely followed, to put it mildly. Honking in North America or Europe either means an emergency or someone is pissed off. Honking in India means hello I am here.

[JCharante]

Basically it’s reverse sonar

[amrocha]

I wish honking in NA or EU was an emergency thing haha

Now that I live in Japan I really feel the difference every time I go back

[azinman2]

Vietnam is this way too. Guessing a bunch of countries are like this.

[zamnos]

Philippines as well.

[PaulHoule]

China

[toast0]

As swalling said, honking in India is constant. A horn in a US bound car may be activated 100 times a year, if the driver is a real jerk. A horn in India will be activated 100 times a day easy. You need a much more robust horn (and horn switch) or it'll wear out quickly; but there's no need for such a robust horn in the US.

[NoZebra120vClip]

The last time I owned a car was 1997. By that time, I had 9 years' experience driving and I'd racked up a significant mileage as well. My first car was a Corolla where I could barely get to the horn, because it was a 2-inch button on the wheel. I can't remember exactly the configuration of the Integra's horn, but when I had that final, fateful accident, I made a really valiant attempt to honk at my assailant just before I cracked up, and completely failed to get any sound out of it. That was how infrequently I honked, and how inexperienced I was at activating that part of the car's controls!

[jspash]

It would be interesting to see if there is a correlation between the number of honks per driver and the number of accidents they are in involved in. But I doubt the onboard computer collects "num_honks: integer"

[notRobot]

Found an article: https://jalopnik.com/audi-is-designing-extra-loud-horns-for-...

[zoklet-enjoyer]

The last car I had was broken into in Tukwila. Window smashed. It was really annoying to get it fixed, so I just left my doors unlocked for the rest of the time I owned the car. There was one instance where someone went in my car and dug around. Better than getting the window broken again.

[ornornor]

Aren’t you out of luck with insurance if the car is recovered but wasn’t broken into? Same as a burglary and there is no sign of forced entry, won’t the insurance deny the claim because you didn’t act prudently and locked your door?

[tmerc]

Not op, but my car has an active exploit for the key fob that won't ever get fixed. (Thanks Honda) many cars have similar.

"I make a point of locking my car. This explicit exists. Prove I was negligent."

Tangentially, if you install subwoofers, use a quick disconnect (and a fuse). At least if the subs get stolen, your car won't burn down.

[zoklet-enjoyer]

It was an older car that I drove until it wasn't worth fixing anymore. I just had liability insurance.

[mdmglr]

I don’t understand why you’re mentioning your perception and opinion that people in Korea have 0 concerns about theft. And thus it somehow absolves Hyundai.

I suspect this was a money saving decision on Hyundai and Kia.

Immobilizers were standard on 96% of other manufacturers' models, the institute said. But they were standard on only 26% of Hyundai and Kia models. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/hyundai-kia-engine-immobilizer-...

It amazing to me people line up paying over MSRP for some of these cars. Some mechanic friends of mine have said that Hyundais are some of the worse cars. Full engine replacement with less that 30k miles.

[PaulHoule]

i drove a Hyundai Elantra in the mid-2000s. It was a nice car in many respects but around 80,000 miles it started falling apart and needed a $300 repair every month and i figured at that rate i could spend that money on a car payment and be driving a new car so I got a Honda.