[yesco]

Overuse of antibiotics in livestock is certainly a problem, but this is also true for many of the pesticides we use for plant farming and our lack of standardized irrigation water testing (in the US) which has lead to issues like the recent E. Coli outbreak in lettuce. In general modern farming of all kinds has issues that need to be addressed, I don't see any exclusivity in the meat category.

I will continue eating meat, I believe it is *good* for both individual health and collective health. In fact the amount of vegans I've met in life who didn't look like they were suffering from some illness has been very rare, only solidifying my position on this.

I'm comfortable with meat prices going up if it resolves the antibiotics issue, but I'm unconvinced by the moral arguments you disguise as health arguments.

[PuppyTailWags]

> In fact the amount of vegans I've met in life who didn't look like they were suffering from some illness has been very rare, only solidifying my position on this.

I would push against this sort of anecdotal view. The circle of people we eat with (and therefore know the dietary restrictions of) tend to be quite low compared to all the people we meet with on a day to day. Additionally, "looking sick" is a vague enough assessment that simply knowing someone is a vegan may very easily cause you to be much more critical of their appearance, and vice versa you may see someone who looks sick to you and then pay more attention to their dietary habits than you ordinarily would. Another thing to note is that all dietary restriction lifestyles is subject to a noticeably higher rate of disordered eating or intestinal issue that leads to the person participating in the dietary change and therefore it may be important to first determine if the disordered eating or gut issue caused veganism vs the other way around.

That is to say: even though I am neutral towards veganism itself, your logic as to why meat is good reads to me as quite flawed and poorly reasoned around.

[yesco]

What do you want me to say here? The science is pretty much settled that we are omnivores, you can't just ditch meat without consequences. Yes there are substitutes, but in practice do vegans consistently eat these at the right amount to compensate for the lack of meat in their diet? Well my first hand experience tells me this is a big fat NO.

Let's put it another way, imagine some guy likes to pester you about your eating habits, says they are unhealthy, and that their diet is healthy. Well the burden of proof is on them and as someone who cares about staying fit, if the guy trying to convince me either looks like skin & bones, or is overweight, then they are already on shakey ground. This has been my first hand experience multiple times.

Ultimately my ancedote is not meant to be a counter-argument, but instead a reminder to those reading to touch grass. Because why wouldn't your personal experiences matter more than the anecdotes and misinformation spread by strangers online? (This applies to my own anecdote as well)

[PuppyTailWags]

I'm just saying that "well everyone I met who is vegan looks sick" is shoddy reasoning to proclaim eating meat is the healthy behavior. That's it. I already clearly said I have no opinion on veganism itself, nor am I pestering you with a claim that any one diet is healthy.

[goaheaddownvote]

I agree with you here. I'm not advocating everyone be vegan -- I'm not even personally vegan! I don't even think most people should be vegetarian, as much as I'd love to live in that future. I don't even think I made any arguments one way or the other, just that it's generally pretty bad and maybe we should do less of it!

I just find that most people when confronted with a fairly straightforward way to mitigate massive environmental and global health problems (eat less meat), people will get up in arms and defensive and shut the conversation down immediately. They'll make all sorts of assumptions about what you're implying about them, which I feel like points to the fact that people in their deepest self know that it's somewhat wrong.

It's kinda funny is all, it's the same behavior I engaged in when people told me I should consider smoking less or not at all.

[hombre_fatal]

Most people on this forum are flabby omnivores but nobody is going to use that observation to condemn plants or meat because it doesn't make sense. Same with someone's carnivore hot dog diet. Or someone's vegan Skittles diet.

[foxyv]

Every Vegan I know either looks like an underwear model or an athlete. Doesn't mean that all of them are like that though. Although being Vegan definitely stops you from eating at most horrible fast food places. Whenever someone asks me if I feel healthier since cutting out meat I just say "Beer is Vegan."

The moral arguments are pretty solid though. The amount of rainforest currently being clear cut to make way for cattle is insane. Ecosystem destruction is being fueled heavily by the demand for meat products. The US used to be covered in huge forests that were clear cut for cattle, way before any of us were born. Use of antibiotics is just one more aspect of why we should probably cut back heavily on beef.

The pricing does a good job of this, but I would encourage meat eaters to reduce consumption of beef products as much as possible. Maybe make it an occasional treat instead of the main course of every meal.

[stametseater]

> Every Vegan I know either looks like an underwear model or an athlete

That sounds like the vegetarians I know. The vegans I know look like cancer patients.

[tired-turtle]

Veganism can act as cover for disordered eating; perhaps that is what you have observed.

Related, I know many “vegetarians” who are what I call effective vegans, meaning they eat vegan ~90% of the time, recognizing purity as a pointless pursuit.

[stametseater]

Anecdotally, vegetarian seem to eat a lot of eggs, fish, etc. Yes I know fish is technically not vegetarian, but.. they call themselves vegetarian and certainly avoid other meats.

[foxyv]

Just saying, my experience with vegans is very limited. For all you know, the vegans you know are, in fact, cancer patients. Cancer patients are much less rare than vegans after all. Not everyone tells the people around them.

[stametseater]

> Cancer patients are much less rare than vegans after all.

Maybe in the general population, but not in my social circles (which skew young and urban.)

[biorach]

>I don't see any exclusivity in the meat category

It's exclusive in the resource requirements, which are an order of magnitude greater than for plant-based foods.