[spicyusername]

I looked into this, as I'm starting to burn out of working in the industry.

The community colleges in my area require a surprising amount of prerequisites and pay _dismally_. Even with 15 years of industry experience, I'd need at least a year or two of additional schooling (while not being paid) to earn a paltry few hundred dollars per credit hour per semester while teaching.

Hard sell to not get paid for a few years to then take a 75-90% pay cut.

[Mezzie]

I'm not in tech but I'm qualified to adjunct/teach some other subjects and this is it. I'm even a good teacher. But why would I do it when I'm making more and I'm treated better working retail?

My local CC just posted a part-time librarian job I would jump on if it paid more than 21/hr. Fuck that - I could do better as a waitress or bartender. If they want to use my experience and education they can pay for it; God knows they're charging the kids enough.

[SamuelAdams]

I’ve always seen these jobs as targeting people who could be retired but want something to do. Pay isn’t great, but they offer very flexible hours for straightforward work. It engages you mentally (which the older you get, the more you’ll appreciate).

[Mezzie]

That's the ideal/stated desire (and historically this was more likely to be true and it does hold true in some cases: graduate school adjuncting is more likely to be of this sort), but the economic incentives and overproduction of graduate degrees relative to the jobs requiring them have functionally made adjuncting the service class of academia.

And just because the hours are flexible doesn't mean the pay isn't an issue: Employment perks are relative and flexible hours are way more common than they used to be. For most people who qualify to be adjuncts, they could also freelance (which I do do) and get both payment and flexibility.

[topkai22]

I think it’s also a prestige thing. Getting to call yourself “professor” has status for some, even at a community college.

[porknubbins]

I thought community colleges were just a fraction of the cost of 4 year colleges? In my state at least CC are free to local HS grads. I think in a lot of cases you would have to do it out of a desire to teach rather than as an profit maximizer.

[Mezzie]

I genuinely would like to teach - K-12 or higher ed.

I will not work somewhere where I am expected to put in extra hours for no extra pay, allow people to physically and verbally abuse me, and doesn't pay enough for me to make rent and bills.

I don't expect a CC to pay amazingly, but if they want good people they should at least make sure that they offer a better deal than jobs who only want a GED and right now they aren't. Plus the salaries are skewed: I could get a good paying job at my local CC... in the development or 'business' side of things. But not to actually teach. If you can pay data analysts 70k there's no reason to stiff your educational staff. It says a lot about the values of that institution.

[SoftTalker]

> I will not work somewhere where I am expected to put in extra hours for no extra pay

So you'll never teach K-12 without giving up that restriction.

People often joke about how teachers have summer off, 2 weeks at Christmas, fall break, spring break, etc. but don't talk so much about the hours of work they do at home every night grading or doing lesson prep, or the hours of time they put into advising or coaching extracurriculars, as well as required professional development that normally has to be done on their own time.

[Mezzie]

Yeah, that's why the 'and' is emphasized. I can see why that's the case (grading takes a variable amount of time, so does advising, and required PD to keep teachers up to date is very reasonable). I wouldn't mind doing that if I were paid enough to be secure, but you want me to do that and probably have to work a second job? No.

[fn-mote]

> rather than as an profit maximizer

We're not talking about profit MAXIMIZING, this is planning your own exploitation.

You would have to be supported by someone else or be independently wealthy to take typical CC jobs.

In the US in my area, I'm pretty sure you'd be better teaching K-12 because the unions are bigger / stronger and hence the benefits and job security are greater.

[Mezzie]

This, basically.

I would happily teach at a CC for ~40-50k. I consider having my basic economic needs taken care of a necessity to being a good teacher - there is a correlation between poverty/economic stress and agitation, irritability, etc. Being in constant stress is not going to be conducive towards teaching well. If I have to work 2 jobs, I'm going to not spend my time grading thoroughly, I will choose the quick and easy route to curriculum development instead of tailoring the curriculum, etc. Oh and forget time for office hours or student emails; have to go deliver groceries or work at a car wash so I can make rent.

I'm not going to take a job where I'm not given what I need to be good at the job - it's terrible for me and it's terrible for the students. The only 'winner' is the institution.

[SoftTalker]

Almost anybody who is teaching is doing it out of a desire to teach. It's certainly one of the lowest paying ways to put years of experience/specialized knowledge to use.

[aaabre2476]

Most of the time it's professors from universities that are financially well off already and who like teaching, often nearing retirement.

If you need another fancy job on your resume or a big paycheck then it isn't for you. It certainly does a good job filtering out instructors that only care about their own advancement and don't give a shit about teaching the courses, which is unfortunately a significant percentage of the people that teach university courses.

I'd go as far as to say academia in general isn't for you if you want to get paid the big bucks. If you aren't professor emeritus or department chair for a large CS department, then it is never going to be competitive with industry. That should be obvious, but I guess for some people it isn't.

[roflyear]

CCs aren't charging kids much.

[Mezzie]

In comparison to other higher ed institutions, you're right.

This one in particular (I grew up in the region) has still seen its in-state tuition grow by 300%+ in the past 20 years. Where's the money going?

[achates]

Right, I just looked it up and the largest community college in my city now charges about the same as I paid to go to the nearby state university 10 years ago. It's clearly not going to the instructors. It must be a combination of new construction and administrative bloat.

[anonymouskimmer]

Or less state funding: https://www.highereddive.com/news/state-funding-for-communit...

> States are giving four-year colleges $63 million less in fiscal 2021 than they did last year, a 0.1% decline. Meanwhile, they’re cutting funding to two-year institutions by $457 million, a 2% decline.

> Enrollment losses and pandemic-related expenses are buffeting community colleges’ budgets as these schools face cuts in state support.

[cvwright]

State funding doesn’t matter as much for many CCs because they have local taxing authority, just like K-12 education.

This is another reason why they are often significantly cheaper than a 4-yr school in the same state.

[dpkirchner]

Was the tuition subsidized to a greater degree prior to the price increase?

[Mezzie]

Yes. Which goes back to 'if my community doesn't value teaching, why should I do it?' In that case, I'll use my background and skills to help those in my immediate circle and their children - people who do value it. Or make use of other skills I have that are more valued even if I like doing them less (I would prefer to teach over code but shrug).

If society heavily implies "teaching is stupid and has no value" then of course fewer people are going to be teachers. How many SWEs would keep doing the job if it paid 20k a year, required reporting to multiple people, asked for a Master's+, and involved verbal abuse? I'm guessing most people who like to code still wouldn't take that job; they'd do something else and code in their free time.

[phpisthebest]

>>librarian job I would jump on if it paid more than 21/hr. Fuck that

hmm I wonder if you also protest the high cost of education?

>> God knows they're charging the kids enough.

looky there you do... how ironic. Community Collages do not charge high rates, they are purposely designed not to, and in many states are statutory limited on what they can charge

Many of the Adjuncts I know do it not as primary income, but as secondary income, and they do not do it for financial gain they fine other value in it like the original story./

[Mezzie]

They're cheap comparatively. They also cost over 3x what they did 20 years ago and pay non teaching staff well. If it were truly about not having any money, I'd expect support and admin staff to also be low paid, but they're not. I don't want a lot of money, but I need enough to be secure and therefore able to devote my attention to my work.

> Many of the Adjuncts I know do it not as primary income, but as secondary income, and they do not do it for financial gain they fine other value in it like the original story.

Where do they adjunct? You see more of this at grad level or higher-level undergrad course adjuncting.

I also have major problems with the exploitation of vocational awe that happens in higher ed. If they don't need the money why accept pay at all? Why not make it a volunteer position? Surely there are enough retirees that adjuncts could be replaced with volunteers if the money is not a concern?

[300bps]

I taught a non-credit course on Novell Networking at a local college back when I was a Certified Netware Engineer.

Will never do that again. 10% of the class picked it up quickly. 80% of the class picked it up. 10% of the class would never understand the material and dragged the rest of the class down asking incessant questions.

The money was a joke and I hated it.

[bluedino]

Being on the student side of this, it seems like half of the class was there because of their employer.

Some people were "learning new skills", and attended as a requirement. They just sat on their phones the whole time. Zero intention of learning or being employed in this capacity.

Then there were the people with zero computer skills that shouldn't have been in the class, and took up the entire two first days with how to sign into their student account, use and RDP session...

Hopefully after the first couple weeks all of those have dropped out.

[grogenaut]

I saw some of these during a machining class near Boeing. Most were actually trying to learn but it felt like high school with them fucking around on the machines. Some were real serious which is who I talked to.

The worst were the folks who were literally of the opinion that they just sat through this bullshit like a mushroom and they'd check the boxes to move up one grade at the union. One of these was a dude who constantly complained out loud about the math. Machining feeds and speeds is based on the surface feet / minute or your metric equivalent of the speed of the outer diameter of your cutter. So pi is used a lot. The equation is on every wall. 5 minutes in while everyone was signing paperwork I had reversed the formular for every variable. Page 3 of the book does that for you and makes pi 3 for ease and safety. This was the math the guy complained about. We had to do it 5 times total. 7 classes in this dude still had not brought in a calculator and the laziest kid in the class mocked him for it. This same guy who couldn't / wouldn't do the math spent an hour at lunch explaining his intricate scheme to basically work 14 days each year for the next 2 years before exiting out to part time and then retirement with his full benes. So he could do it, but he just wanted to sit at home playing guitar and drinking and subjected the rest of is this complaints. Also he hogged the professors time a lot.

There were some others who did not have the math skills to do offsets/ zero setting on depth of drill holes. But when the professors could give them the time they could usually come up with a way to explain it. That guy wanted to learn but also felt that once he was certified his job was to read a book until the machine went into fault mode, so the training got him an easier job. He didn't actually need to understand any of the training to hit a button when a light went red.

[pc86]

Hopefully the instructor in those cases is willing and able to just flunk the students who aren't trying, or just aren't capable of handling the material.

[hgsgm]

Seems like the classs was extremely success (90%!) and a simple fix would be to take questions outside of lecture.

But it does sound like a good choice to not do it if you don't like teaching.

[nortonham]

I feel like that would be the case no matter the school and no matter the subject.. In any class there are some students who just don't care, or are out of their depth.

[everybodyknows]

As someone who might be tempted to someday attempt a community-service teaching assignment, the lessons I'd take from this are:

1. Accept only a for-credit class.

2. Demand a "weed-out" midterm, to be held before the last-drop date.

[ramraj07]

The irony being I know lecturers who teach at actually prestigious universities and make decent money and have none of the useless requirements satisfied.

[hgsgm]

PhD and postdoc include on the job training as a teacher.

[grogenaut]

But does not give you the certifications/course work. Which the cc likely requires.

I went to take an EMT class. I was required to show I passed high school algebra. I couldn't get my hs transcript. The cc wouldn't accept my college transcript because the lowest math I took in college was calc two. Same for English comp. I tested out of that in college so much lowest comp class was 350 - tech writing.

I had to take 2 hours of online tests to show the competency. For a class that didn't even require either.

[ramraj07]

The person has neither..

[perrygeo]

Even if you've got the prerequisites in hand to teach on a topic, the pay is just laughable. You're likely expected to lecture, develop a full curriculum, grade their work, and hold office hours. Easily a few hours a week for every "credit hour".

I had a friend who taught at our local comm college for a few semesters and worked out the pay to be less than $7/hr. For an advanced almost graduate-level IT topic. It's a joke. His advice - if you want to teach, do it as a volunteer. Don't hold any illusions about getting compensated.

[hgsgm]

Teaching at community college is community service, not a career.

[spicyusername]

Many forms of community service don't ask that you bankrupt yourself to contribute.

[bane]

> The community colleges in my area require a surprising amount of prerequisites and pay _dismally_.

Exactly. They want quality education provided by people who see it as a social giveback. The pay is almost an honorarium.

Many CC professors are seniors in industry or professors at other local universities who do it really to give people a chance or to help with career mobility within their industry.

[dcchambers]

Full time, permanent staff teachers at our local CC make good money. Not "big tech" money by any means, but definitely a respectable salary above the average for the area.

The part time teachers make barely anything though.

[znpy]

In fairness, if community college paid more they would probably be way more expensive for students