[dataflow]

Sure if you have a separate home on your own dedicated land, but what about everyone with HOAs, property taxes, etc. to deal with? For many people they still have to pay "rent" and still can't really do whatever they want with the land and roof, so they don't see much of these benefits either, right?

[b112]

This is like women's pants, and women complaining about the lack of pockets.

If everyone refused to buy with a HOA, then they would vanish in new builds, and could even be uniformly voted to disband in old builds.

But apparently some like HOAs (don't ask me why).

[nkrisc]

Like most things in life: it depends. I live in an HOA. We pay about $150 a year, they keep the common areas maintained, coordinate with the county for road and other municipal work, and … that’s basically it. They’re pretty much otherwise invisible and are just my neighbors.

Sometimes I even break the rules and put my garbage bins out too early and leave them out too late and I’ve never heard a word about it.

There was even a foreclosed house in the neighborhood that was increasingly unmaintained, and the HOA hounded the bank and got them to take better care of the property until it was finally sold.

Overall, our HOA is a net positive.

I also was part of an HOA for 4-unit condo building I lived in previously. It was perfectly fine and its purpose and necessity was very apparent.

I’m sure there are nightmare HOAs out there, just like there are nightmare neighbors in places with no HOA.

[grepfru_it]

An HOA is like socialism. It's great for the first two, maybe three generations. But then new owners come in and they DGAF about HOA rules and/or the HOA (what's a measly $150/year on my sr engineer salary). And finally the HOA and/or property starts falling apart^W^Wchanging.

We are witnessing this right now, having not moved from our townhome. First decade was great, everyone follow the rules, HOA cared about the look of our properties and kept everyone in check. Then HOA stopped sending letters about the dirty facades. Then the neighbors one by one all decided its okay to leave their garbage cans out even though the bylaws specifically forbid this. Then they cut back on services they offer (illegal parking is only enforced during HOA business hours, no more landscape maintenance), they stopped enforcement (neighbor has 4 pets, facades haven't been cleaned in 5-6 years, trash and toys are being left in the shared driveway). The final slap in the face, we got an email last month saying they are raising the HOA fee by 25%.

Unlike socialism, I can politic my way into the board and demand change. Which looks like something I'm going to have to do to get back the HOA (and property) that I loved

[seanmcdirmid]

HOA is more like Democracy: you have to participate in the meetings and governance of the HOA to make sure it is run well, but people are often too lazy to vote or be informed, so it can deteriorate. The HOA isn't an independent entity, it is supposed to be collectively run and managed by all of the home owners.

[dataflow]

It's not about being lazy. It's that (like government voting) people try to confuse and mislead you with HOA voting, too. Like they bundle a bunch of things together and try to sell you the changes you like, while burying the ones that hurt you deep inside the text so you don't notice them. Or making the rules obscure enough that you don't realize their full implications until it's too late. Or, when they come to your door and ask for your vote to changes to the HOA rules, they (at first glance, quite graciously, with a smile!) request that you hold off on voting so they can discuss your concern and find a way to incorporate it into their changes... except it later turns out the package is all-or-nothing (changing it would invalidate existing votes!), and their real intention is to prevent you from voting against the initiative until the deadline passes, so that they could gather the minimum number of favorable votes more easily.

[citizen_friend]

Aren't they usually franchises of a larger national corporation?

[foogazi]

HOA board is elected by the homeowners. Laws are clear on this.

They might hire out property management duties to an outside firm

[seanmcdirmid]

The HOA can hire a property management company, and the builder usually sets up some kind of contract, but after the builder is out of the way, the HOAs are always run by the home owners.

[lostlogin]

Is the price rise a slap on the face? It sounds like it’s what you want. If you want letters to go out for minor issues and landscaping, towing etc, you need funding to do it. This has to happen before enforcement increases. I think that getting your ideal back is going to take several more big increases.

> Unlike socialism, I can politic my way into the board and demand change.

That sounds like the definition of socialism. What do you mean?

[c22]

I think you're both talking about democracy. People in democratic systems can vote for socialist policies or not...

[nkrisc]

> An HOA is like socialism.

I have no idea what an HOA has to do at all with socialism, apart from the fact both involve groups of people.

Aside from that, an HOA functions as well as it is run. It sounds like the folks running yours aren't all the invested in it or don't have the same priorities as you. The solution is, as you stated, being the one to try and make the change by joining the HOA leadership.

In my case, I don't have that issue, and the HOA is a few years past 30 running now. I suppose I'm lucky that there's enough homeowners in the neighborhood who are both will and able to run things to an acceptable standard.

[throwaway646465]

Many local municipalities actually require the developer to include a new HOA as part of the permitting process for new development.

This is because small local governments are often too cash poor to foot the additional road maintenance, utilities, etc so they want to offload the cost to the developers/ the developers customers.

[hnaccount_rng]

As a European, this really reads like the thing with the "give them 5 more minutes and they'll rediscover taxes" situation.. Yeah if you outsource government functions to private institutions you'll have to require those to exist. Just that, being private, there's no accountability to be had..

[jen20]

The HOA fees are _on top_ of property taxes that would make Europeans’ eyes water.

[lostlogin]

You you share what you pay?

I don’t understand how this could be true.

I’m in Auckland, New Zealand and don’t have a housing association.

I pay about US$1500 per year in property tax. It covers rubbish collection, library access, street cleaning, park maintenance, subsidised public transport (which is an abysmal service) etc.

https://www.aucklandcouncil.govt.nz/property-rates-valuation...

[saltcured]

In the SF Bay Area the property tax rate is around 1-1.25% (it varies slightly by local bonds for school districts etc.). So someone who buys a house today in a popular suburb at $1M+ will be paying $10k+ per year in property tax. My parents' home has one of these typical HOAs established by the builder. The HOA fees were $1200 last year.

The HOA does have significant common areas including a pool and park that has been there since the beginning. It also has hilly open spaces that require annual weed and brush clearing for fire breaks. These areas also have landslide potential with drainage and retaining wall engineering issues, which adds to both contractor costs and also increases insurance premiums for the HOA.

My parents bought their house new for under $45k in 1975 and are currently assessed at under $170k based on the Prop 13 logic. It's hard to say what the market value is since recently sold homes in the area have had significant remodeling compared to my parents' time-capsule, but I imagine they could get nearly $1M. They probably represent the lower limit of assessments in their neighborhood. Most neighboring houses have been resold and reset to market rates at least once in the past 50 years, or at least done some major renovations which also partially increase the assessment for tax purposes.

[seanmcdirmid]

$1500/year? How is that so cheap? I pay around $900/month.

There are people who own condos in my region who pay $900/month in HOA fees on top of $900/month in property taxes.

[punk-coder]

I live in Georgia, City of Decatur. My house is a 1920 craftsman, 2,800 sq ft, 4 bedroom, 3 bath. We pay ~$1,200 a month in property taxes.

[jen20]

That doesn’t even cover a month in Austin! I’m not going to share the exact amount, but it’s a (low) double-digit multiple of that.

[hnaccount_rng]

So? It doesn't particularly matter _how_ taxes are collected. Just how much in total, and what you pay from that tax money. If I'm reading, that HOAs have to build their own roads, their own sewer system, power lines, etc. Then yeah.. that is a state responsibility here. That is done by a publicly accountable organisation, where you can, when you are angry with their performance, go to your elected officials and make them do something about it. Yes it's not as direct as being a customer, yes it's not as easy as you getting your own way on everything, but there is an established process for everything.

The typical argument on this site here is: Europe doesn't have a thriving tech center because of high taxes. The HOAs and stuff like that is a consequence of the different tax burden. So I guess your total taxability is lower than ours shrug

[mmh0000]

I’ve posted this before and it wasn’t well received but I love HOAs.

When I bought my first house, I was adamant that I didn’t want an HOA. Over the next ten years the neighborhood went to crap. I ended up living next to neighbors who didn’t maintain their yards, parked junker cars on their lawn and let their houses go to trash.

When I moved, I specifically wanted an HOA. After five years, I still love my HOA. Mostly for two reasons. First, other neighbors here generally have the same mind set and care about their most expensive possession. Second when someone starts letting things slide the HOA slaps ‘‘em on the wrist.

[harshalizee]

I don't understand this mentality at all. Why do you care how they maintain their property if it doesn't harm you directly? I never understood why anyone would harass someone else over their lawn. It's only a matter of time where you end up with neighbors who don't share the same mindset to start micromanaging the neighborhood.

I live in north Seattle area where non-HOA homes are priced higher than HOA homes. The area has a couple of older somewhat rundown houses and no one cares. Prices are still at least $100k higher than the new builds with HOAs on the next block. So there goes the old excuse for maintaining home value.

[mmh0000]

You don't understand why I would care about the neighborhood that I live in? My house is the most expensive thing I own, I worked incredibly hard to get it. I am proud of it. I take care of it.

I want to live in a neighborhood with others who feel the same way.

To your second point, yes, not all HOAs are great. If you frequent fark.com, you'll find multiple threads per month about some terrible thing an HOA is doing. But, that's why you do your due diligence when selecting an HOA. You carefully read the CC&Rs before signing on the house, you talk to others in the neighborhood before moving in. Much like selecting an insurance plan. For example, my HOA is setup so that leadership fully rotates every 3 years, with the rotations staggered. Worst case we get bad leadership for 1 year. Though, so far, in the in the 15 years the HOA has existed, they've done nothing but enforce rules everyone has agreed to. (Well that, and they killed off a bunch of common-area grass by hiring the cheapest lawn care they could find. )

[harshalizee]

Same! My house is the most expensive thing I own, I worked incredibly hard to get it. I am proud of it. I take care of it the way I want it. I don't care what some other un-invested party has to say about how I live.

> they've done nothing but enforce rules everyone has agreed to

But that's not really true is it? Most people buying a house in America do not have access to HOA by-laws until after signing. It's increasingly hard to even find homes that don't belong to a HOA unless you have the financial means to buy wherever you like. Plus, HOAs aren't opt-in/out either.

It doesn't matter if a majority of you decide on rules, unless the same majority is willing to fork out money to pay my mortgage+taxes, Idgaf what you have to say.

> I want to live in a neighborhood with others who feel the same way.

If you really believe this, you can go ahead and disband the HOA. You don't need to enforce with a stick if this is really the case.

[foogazi]

> Most people buying a house in America do not have access to HOA by-laws until after signing.

This is not true

[harambae]

> Most people buying a house in America do not have access to HOA by-laws until after signing.

I know John Oliver mentioned in his HOA segment that this is sometimes the case, but it's definitely not "most" locations and I actually don't know where it is true (wish he had clarified).

It's definitely not true in Massachusetts, New Hampshire or California because I'm familiar with the real estate laws of those states.

[citizen_friend]

The only reason to be focused on those things is if your main concern ins your resell value.

[bobthepanda]

HOAs are the only legal mechanism for a development to assess fees to maintain common amenities.

If your neighborhood hires landscapers, or has a pool, or you share literally any part of the building structure, then an HOA comes into play. Often new developments have private roads that need maintenance, snow clearing, etc.

[cantaloa]

In many places, the HOA is the only entity that will do anything about bad neighbors like a dog that barks 24/7 or someone playing music all night—things that don't necessarily break city law but do affect your life, or things that do break city law but the city won't bother enforcing.

It all comes down to luck of the draw.

[Wowfunhappy]

Those things should break city law though! To me, this is another of privatizing what should be the government's job, resulting in less accountability and less democratic control.

[tzs]

Why not have both? City law sets a baseline for the city, but that will be a one size fits all solution.

Someone who wants a place quieter than the noise level the city enforces can find a development with an HOA that sets a lower level. Someone who is particularly sensitive to smoke can find a development that bans outdoor fires on more days than the city does.

As long as an HOA is only limiting things that actually affect other people and maintaining common property, and it is legally structured in a way that prevents scope creep (or ensures that existing owners are grandfathered if new restrictions are imposed), I don't see anything inherently wrong with having an HOA.

[matthewdgreen]

I don’t know if HOAs are great or not, but I live in a mid-size city with a lot of more important problems than taking care of my neighbors’ unsightly home situations. I can’t realistically expect city government to handle it, and moreover different neighborhoods have different very comfort levels with that sort of thing. Moving that sort of “minor living arrangements” governance out of the big city government into the neighborhood actually works much better.

[seti0Cha]

If the HOA is entirely elected by the people who live in it, it sounds as if it would be more democratic and more accountable than a town or city government. Your vote will have more power and the people elected will literally be your neighbors.

[l1tany11]

The problem is that cities encourage/force HOAs to exist. The city gets the HOA to maintain the infrastructure indefinitely. So you can’t really vote with your wallet. Developers often don’t want to make HOAs, it costs more money and it’s a pain.

But that’s the big thing with all construction. It’s super, super regulated. It’s probably the most heavily regulated thing there is… what gets built is the small subset of things that can both work financially and get approved. If you got on the right merry go round early enough, it’s great. It’s probably the biggest thing creating inequality.

The irony is that long term, many HOAs hurt property values. But supposedly they exist to enhance property values.

[prepend]

My HOA is pretty nice. They manage the common areas and maintain a community pool and tennis court. It was one of the positive reasons I bought my house.

But they also aren’t allowed to monitor grass height and whatnot.