[skadamou]

The crux of PG's argument

"This circus of incompetence and dishonesty is the real issue with the death penalty. We don't even reach the point where theoretical questions about the moral justification or effectiveness of capital punishment start to matter, because so many of the people sentenced to death are actually innocent. Whatever it means in theory, in practice capital punishment means killing innocent people."

[hn_throwaway_99]

If you've ever seen some of the background info when death penalty cases are overturned, it is extremely clear that a lot of people have a very scary definition of "beyond a reasonable doubt". I was in jury duty once and one of the attorneys went around and asked "What do you think about the statement that 'It's better to let 5 guilty men go free than put 1 innocent man in prison.'" The majority of people said they disagreed, that was too many guilty people going free. I'm thinking to myself "So these people are all OK with ~16% of prisoners being innocent? Are they all sadists?" I realize a lot of it is that people are just bad at math, but it general it's clear to me that, in a lot of trials the jury doesn't really differentiate between the "beyond a reasonable doubt" and "preponderance of the evidence" standards.

[nullc]

I've wondered to what extent the death penalty is useful so that people can send an innocent person to life in prison while patting themselves on the back for being so civilized and compassionate that they didn't literally kill them.

As a former engineer and manager whos partner is a lawyer I'll almost certainly never be empaneled to a jury, but I've heard from plenty of people who were.

One instance comes to mind where a (ordinarily) bright coworker returned from jury duty and told me about how they convicted someone of a lesser charge which was logically impossible to be guilty of without being guilty of the more serious charge. The jury were convinced he was innocent but was also convinced that he was a bad dude and it didn't feel right that he'd get off. My understanding is that no one in the jury thought he was guilty of the crimes he was accused of (the lesser or the greater), but the prosecution had successfully (and perhaps rightfully) smeared the accused's character.

I didn't talk about it with him further have hearing his description because I didn't know how to be civil about it, my coworker sent an person to prison who wasn't guilty. Not a jury, but him: 'cause a single person could have hung that jury and he didn't. I get that the social pressure can be intense, and I try to have sympathy for people who are trying to do the right thing in such situations... but... damn.

[inferiorhuman]

  I get that the social pressure can be intense, and I try to have sympathy
  for people who are trying to do the right thing in such situations... but...
  damn.

If you're curious, you should talk to him. I was a juror on a murder case, voted to convict one of the defendants. While he did, in fact, kill the victim (affirmative defense), I'm unsure that I would class his actions as murder or manslaughter. And I'm sure I'm not comfortable with the sentence a murder conviction carried, although my peers were quite confident (again, affirmative defense).

Sure, there's peer pressure, but there's a lot more pressure from the legal system to adhere to archaic definitions of truth and guilt. Pressure from the legal system carries a much bigger stick than pressure from the other jurors. Don't even think about jury nullification or you'll be on a judge's shit list. Trust that the police translated things into English correctly before the official translator arrived. Trust that there aren't any mitigating circumstances in the undocumented gap in time. Trust that the judge is not withholding material evidence. I rationalize my behavior because I followed the letter and spirit of. the law, but yeah there's a fair bit of shame and regret that tends to stick with me. Personally I'd aim for empathy were I you because nothing in our legal system is so cut and dry.

[nullc]

It's been well over a decade-- so no contact now. I did talk about it enough that I was pretty convinced that they thought they were innocent of the charges. It's can be much harder to understand someone's position when you're not under the pressures yourself, I surely didn't at the time though I was aware but being aware doesn't mean getting it.

I think at the time I perceived him as being kind of glib about it, bragging that they didn't give the person a worse conviction. In hindsight, he may have been feeling bad and looking for validation or an escape from his doubts. But I couldn't be too helpful then because I didn't get it. Maybe I get it a little more now, or at least I'm less prone to think that individuals doing the "right" thing (though they should!) is a meaningful fix for systemic problems. ... and a lot less enamored with the idea that anyone should be rushing into making trouble for themselves out of some principle.

That jurors take their role seriously and make their best effort as they understand it is all we can fairly ask of anyone.

Thank you for stepping up to mention your experience and for your service. Had you not been in seat it would have been someone else, perhaps someone who'd suffer the same regrets you've suffered (so you spared them), or someone who would have taken it less seriously and suffered no lingering regrets (unfair to accused, their victims, and the public-- regardless of the outcome).

[maxwell]

> Don't even think about jury nullification or you'll be on a judge's shit list.

Curious what that means in practice? What can a judge do to a juror?

[inferiorhuman]

At the very least hold you in contempt.

[seattle_spring]

I mean... A solid half of the US population has demonstrated that they think the death penalty is reasonable punishment for using a forged hundred dollar bill. Not surprised those same people would ensure "guilty" parties are punished to the fullest extent, collateral damage be damned.

[inferiorhuman]

I can't speak to Washington, but in California it's well beyond jurors being unable to grasp "beyond a reasonable doubt" because jurors, not judges, determine the sentence (life v death). The sentencing guidelines use verbiage that a lot of lay folk are not familiar with (e.g. mitigating) and jurors are not allowed to use a dictionary to define words they don't understand. Judges are not obligated to allow jurors to ask questions or for clarification during any phase of the trial. It's been a while since I've thought about capital cases but I believe written copies of the sentencing guidelines aren't provided to jurors. Given that we're talking about the ultimate punishment here, the system is (in California at least) a colossal mess.

[sitkack]

> jurors are not allowed to use a dictionary to define words they don't understand

Is this the "no outside information rule" ?

I just asked the oracle and it explained a bunch of stuff that I won't reference because I can't fact check it right now, but it sounds like the amount of "discretion" a judge has over what the jurors can do and ask is utterly illogical.

Not a lawyer, but I just looked up juror selection and found this hot pocket.

https://californiaglobe.com/articles/new-california-laws-on-...

US law is such a mess. "Standing" is IMO the biggest one for blocking the removal of bad laws.

[inferiorhuman]

I should probably clarify (and I'm not a lawyer either). In California jurors in are not guaranteed the right to ask questions regardless of the charges. This actually caught one of the defense attorneys by surprise at the trial I was a juror on (well after I'd studied this shit at uni). In capital cases, jurors determine the sentence – this is unique to capital cases. Different states do things differently.

  Is this the "no outside information rule" ?

My understanding was that this was due to the law wanting laypeople (nee jurors) to use precise legal terminology. Whereas no outside information feels more like "don't do outside research on the facts of the case".

[sitkack]

It sounds like, and it should be confirmed but ...

The court decides what information the jurors have, and it wants them to use precise legal terminology, yet there is no guarantee that those terms will be defined and they are not allowed to use dictionaries to define terms, nor is there a guarantee that a jurors questions will be answered.

Sounds like the default should be a mistrial. Sounds like a situation ripe for making things that are "only true in a court of law" and no where else.

[inferiorhuman]

Yeah that's more or less my take. Essentially the court wants a jury of laypeople who are able to understand legal terms that professionals spent years in school studying. They also want jurors to render opinions on things completely without contextual knowledge – the case I was on involved alcohol so having strong opinions on alcohol was a nearly instant dismissal, I've never seen so many teetotalers in my life.

There are people working to change this, and I think the ability to ask questions is a relatively new development, but it's slow going as anything with our legal system generally is.