[ovidiup]

I live in another Bay Area city that recently imposed a ban on natural gas for all new construction, whether residential or commercial. In addition, the ban forces existing homeowners to install all electric appliances if the cumulative cost of remodels in a 3-year window is over $250,000.

I find this idea absolutely bonkers when our electric infrastructure is terrible. The aerial power lines are subject to trees or large branches falling over and causing large power outages. Just this winter we had 4 major power outages, lasting from few hours to multiple days. Not only my city, the whole Silicon Valley had no power! The place supposedly having the brightest minds, trillion dollar companies, and the most advanced technology in the world! Not only we didn't have electricity, we had no Internet and cellular phones either. Absolutely insane!

Yeah, I do have solar power and battery backup, but during the winter relying on them does not always work. Luckily I had enough solar and battery generated electricity to power my natural gas furnace so I can have my house heated. The fan on the furnace uses 700W when pushing air, far less than electric heaters that would kill my Tesla batteries in a few short hours.

Why would anyone rely on a single source of energy, especially one that's so unreliable? Until we fix the electric grid, we shouldn't force everybody to switch to it.

[Karrot_Kream]

Partner and I are getting rid of our gas stove this year for induction. We're already running on induction on a small burner for most daily cooking, but when we do a large meal or cook for guests we need several burners. But my partner is from a culture that does Wok cooking and I'm from a culture that loves cooking different breads on grills. Our solution has been to use an Iwatani butane burner. It's already more efficient than the terrible stove that came with our house and it's small enough that I prefer grilling breads on it.

Bonus: we got hit by a 24 hour power outage in one of the storms and cooked solely using the Iwatani burner.

[Ferret7446]

> It's already more efficient than the terrible stove.

How are you calculating that? I highly doubt the total net environmental impact of butane canisters (including shipping and packaging) is lower than piped gas.

[Karrot_Kream]

The net impact is definitely more than piped gas. I'm just saying it works as a backup.

[specialist]

A new option is an induction stove with its own battery. It can run a fridge too. Basically a power wall appliance, with a stove on top.

"Induction stoves with batteries built in, and why they matter. A conversation with Sam Calisch of Channing Street Copper Company and Wyatt Merrill of DOE." [Dec 2022] https://www.volts.wtf/p/induction-stoves-with-batteries-buil...

These types of appliances will quickly become the norm.

[WangComputers]

Buy a gasoline or diesel generator and get a transfer switch installed.

California's banning fuel powered generators in 2028 so do it while you can.

[claytongulick]

Or... Leave California?

I'm honestly not trying to be a jerk, but it's really hard for me to understand why anyone would want to live like that.

The government there is just so... intrusive.

I lived in SoCal for six years in the 90s and absolutely loved it.

But now? I've lived all over the country, and experienced a lot of different state governments and local cultures.

I just don't think I could tolerate living in a state with that much regulation.

Does it ever bother you?

[eBombzor]

Unfortunately idiots run the state but IMO California has the greatest geography in the world. It has the most amount of experiences one can get than any other state, some countries even. There a great variety of people and cultures here, only rivaled by NYC. Despite the fires the weather is fantastic most of the time.

It's definitely gotten worse to live in these days (homeless, dumb politicians, rent, traffic, etc) but it's something I would put up with because it's truly a great location. I really wish someday someone competent would come to office there, but alas.

Not saying California is perfect, absolutely not. A shithole some might say, but there's so much Cali offers that you can't get anywhere else.

source: I'm from California, grew up SoCal, went to uni in NorCal. Went and seen it all. Unfortunately now I live in Seattle due to job reasons.

[GravitasFailure]

Oh, there's a lot about California that makes it completely intolerable. Unfortunately there's a lot about other states that make them completely intolerable as well. Pick your poison.

[a-user-you-like]

NY is about the only one with roughly sknklarish levels of draconian control.

[grey-area]

Solar panels and a big battery would be a better choice.

[el_benhameen]

I absolutely agree that in the long term they’re a much better option. But my drag-around gas generator cost 500 bucks, while my solar system was $22k and I got quoted $18k for a single battery.

[Dalewyn]

If we're talking long-term, the generator will easily outlast the solar panel and/or battery if you maintain it properly (which is honestly very trivial as upkeep goes).

[WangComputers]

He already has a battery, a Honda EU2200i to supplement it during blackouts would only be $1,200. Outrageously cheap compared to installing a 2nd home battery.

[thehappypm]

You can probably buy a brand new generator every single time you need it for cheaper than a big battery

[bushbaba]

To be fair, the gas infrastructure is dated and aging up against its lifespan.

[Scoundreller]

Yeah, I have a $20 camp stove and $2 butane cans. And a bbq. And a stick stove if it comes to that. If one is worried about reliability, self-sufficiency is the way.

My biggest worry isn’t cooking, it’s refrigeration.

[rsync]

Let’s say you have a 5BR house … it has been 2-3 years since I surveyed the options but at the time, tankless water heaters that were electric maxed out at something like 6gpm ?

As opposed to a fairly standard 12gpm for a gas unit.

So … you’d have to either take a major step backwards and use a tank heater… or … maybe duplex two units in parallel…

FWIW, I looked into this because I wanted to use an electric option but it’s just not practical.

[Karrot_Kream]

Heat pump water heaters are what you're looking for. They're still tanked so don't need as much instantaneous power to heat a large body of water which also makes them amenable to batteries as a backup. As a bonus, in California water heaters are often installed in garages for townhomes and detached houses and the heat pump will end up cooling the surrounding space which tends to be a benefit during the summers and isn't a big problem through our generally mild winters.

[emodendroket]

If we can't reliably deliver electricity why should I trust the ability to reliably deliver electricity _and_ natural gas? Many gas appliances still require electricity to operate anyway.

[jjav]

> If we can't reliably deliver electricity why should I trust the ability to reliably deliver electricity _and_ natural gas?

To state the obvious, because if one or the other is out at least I have the other one.

That said, while electricity outages are pretty common here (California, thanks PG&E), natural gas has never had any kind of outage or problem.

So with gas I can still cook (gas range) when the electricity is out and I have hot water (gas water heater). I could even heat the house because the furnace fan doesn't require that much power so it can easily be powered by my small generator while all the heating BTUs come from the reliable natural gas line.

[ars]

Natural gas is underground and virtually never has an outage.

A stove needs no power to run - you can light it with a match. And those appliances that need some electricity to help the natural gas can run off of a battery, or a tiny generator.

[hindsightbias]

Let’s see how old gas infrastructure looks after the big one.

San Bruno bonfires for everyone.

[inferiorhuman]

  Natural gas is underground and virtually never has an outage.

What? I mean the obvious response is to point out that time that PG&E used natural gas to blow up a San Bruno neighborhood. After the explosion we found out that PG&E actually had no idea how much they could pressurize their pipeline (and in fact they falsified records to cover this up).

https://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-pge-safety-investigat...

Beyond that leaks happen all the time, and explosions happen from time to time. I'm just gonna throw it out there, PG&E turns off gas service when there's a leak… causing… you know… an outage.

Oakland City Hall evacuated due to gas leak. 2014. https://w3.calema.ca.gov/mail/OperationsPortal.nsf/89f857187...

Car crash causes Oakland gas leak. 2021. https://www.mercurynews.com/2021/08/14/oakland-street-evacua...

Oakland gas explosion. 2010. https://6abc.com/archive/7828878/

Gas leak, explosion. San Francisco, 2007. https://www.mercurynews.com/2007/02/07/gas-leak-causes-explo...

Natural gas power plant explosion in Hayward. 2021. https://www.spglobal.com/marketintelligence/en/news-insights...

Gas explosion, three alarm fire. San Francisco. 2019 https://www.cbsnews.com/sanfrancisco/news/san-francisco-gas-...

Gas explosion and fire. Daly City, 2023. https://abc7news.com/daly-city-gas-line-fire-evacuations-lea...

Gas leak, evacuations. Sausalito 2022. https://www.kron4.com/news/bay-area/fire-units-respond-to-na...

Gas leak, evacuations. Antioch, 2023. https://www.cbsnews.com/sanfrancisco/news/gas-leak-in-antioc...

Gas leak, evacuations. San Francisco, 2022. https://www.cbsnews.com/sanfrancisco/news/evacuations-shelte...

Gas leak, evacuations. Menlo Park, 2022. https://www.cbsnews.com/sanfrancisco/news/crash-menlo-park-s...

Gas leak, evacuations. Corte Madera, 2022. https://www.cbsnews.com/sanfrancisco/news/corte-madera-gas-l...

Ruptured gas line, evacuations. San Francisco, 2022. https://www.cbsnews.com/sanfrancisco/news/ruptured-gas-line-...

Gas leak, shelter-in-place. Emeryville, 2022. https://www.cbsnews.com/sanfrancisco/news/emeryville-gas-lea...

Gas leak, evacuations. Morgan Hill, 2021 https://www.cbsnews.com/sanfrancisco/news/firefighters-at-sc...

PG&E causes gas leak, evacuations. Daly City, 2012. https://www.mercurynews.com/2012/07/09/pge-worker-causes-lea...

Gas leak, evacuations. Daly City, 2019. https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/significant-gas-leak-p...

Gas leak. Daly City, 2017. https://patch.com/california/pacifica/gas-leak-fixed-nearby-...

Gas leak. Foster City, 2015. https://www.kron4.com/news/vehicle-crash-causes-gas-leak-in-...

Gas leak. San Francisco, 2016. https://www.kron4.com/news/crews-at-scene-of-gas-leak-in-san...

[emodendroket]

This case in Massachusetts was also notable: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merrimack_Valley_gas_explosion...

> On September 13, 2018, excessive pressure in natural gas lines owned by Columbia Gas of Massachusetts caused a series of explosions and fires to occur in as many as 40 homes, with over 80 individual fires, in the towns of Lawrence, Andover, and North Andover, all within the Merrimack Valley, in Massachusetts, United States. One person, Leonel Rondon, was killed and 30,000 were forced to evacuate their homes immediately.

One thing I learned around this time is in Massachusetts a number of wooden lines are in service and nobody knows exactly where they all are.

[refurb]

None of those are broad interruptions of service?

[inferiorhuman]

Neither are the overwhelming majority of electrical outages. Then again firemen don't usually respond to electrical outages, and most electrical outages don't trigger evacuations, so there's that.

Besides the claim was "virtually never has an outage" not "virtually never has a widespread outage".

  And im not talking the boonies. Im talking just outside San Francisco.

Aside from the market manipulation outages of 2001 and the initial round of public safety shutoffs, there weren't widespread interruptions of service. In fact last year the only rolling blackouts in the Bay Area were more or less accidental as whatever city (Alameda? Palo Alto?) jumped the gun.

  Gas is way more reliable than electricity in CA.

Meanwhile Texas had widespread natural gas outages in 2021 and 2022. It's been a few years since I've had a power outage out here, and given the current state of PG&E's gas infra I wouldn't exactly call it reliable.

The thing with a power outage is that you'll sit around and enjoy having gas appliances. Whereas with a gas outage, you'll sit around and hope your house doesn't blow up.

[refurb]

California has had rolling black outs the last few summers.

And im not talking the boonies. Im talking just outside San Francisco.

Gas is way more reliable than electricity in CA.

[Ferret7446]

Gas is much simpler than electricity. Electricity relies on the entire grid and control infrastructure. It's not something that is simply "delivered" despite our everyday terminology. Every single device on the grid, input and output, must be synchronized/balanced, thus outages cannot be resolved by simply flipping an on switch.