[j4pe]

Joe Eskenazi, the author of this piece, is a solid journalist who helps run the tiny donation-funded Mission Local. They've done incredible reporting on corruption in the SF city government and punch way above their weight in the stories they break. I have respect for how Joe refused to join in reporting this murder as evidence of a violent crime epidemic, while still reporting on homelessness and property crime.

[Pils]

The current CEO of YCombinator regarding an article in Mission Local a few days ago:

Mission Local seems to serve their local bureaucratic masters over the basic public safety needs of the people. [0]

This is gaslighting. You should be ashamed. [1]

In this case they are “independent” of a sort [2]

In all fairness, he did retweet this article a couple hours ago.

[0] https://twitter.com/garrytan/status/1644520924828540929?s=20

[1] https://twitter.com/garrytan/status/1644510807060021249?s=20

[2] https://twitter.com/garrytan/status/1644535178856124418?s=20

[yonran]

The top part of Joe Eskenazi’s earlier article https://missionlocal.org/2023/04/bob-lee-crazy-bob-mobilecoi... was good (where he reported evidence that the Bob Lee killing was not a robbery), but I agree with Garry Tan that the bottom part of the article (where he makes a broader commentary on whether San Francisco is “safe” unrelated to Bob Lee) is gaslighting and reductionist. It makes many claims and implications that are questionable: e.g., that rampant property crime does not make you unsafe (despite the fact that many thieves are armed), that festering drug addiction does not make you unsafe (which may have been a contributing factor to the car not stopping for the victim), that the problem with crime is “feelings” rather than real risk, and that those who are concerned about crime must have come from sheltered “suburbs”. And there’s no mention of anti-Asian robberies that got the previous DA recalled.

Eskenazi is a well-connected journalist, but he is also arrogant and often presents only one side of issues. For example, virtually nothing that he wrote in this article (anonymously sourced from disgruntled politicians) about the magnet school Lowell High school ended up being true (magnet schools do not violate state code as claimed, and the school did return to test-based admission which he claimed would not happen) https://missionlocal.org/2022/02/lowells-old-merit-based-adm.... So while his reporting is mostly good, you have to be aware of his bias.

[Pils]

I think you are trying to pigeonhole Eskenazi's argument into the standard "progressives don't care about crime" punditry that's popular on the right. I would suggest re-reading the column with a more open mind. His argument is that feeling safe is as important, if not more important from a policymaking perspective, as empirical measures of safety ("real risk") such as violent crime rate. He is in fact arguing the exact opposite of what you are characterizing him as arguing ("rampant property crime does not make you unsafe", "festering drug addiction does not make you unsafe"), and seems to have advised politicians to ignore these issues at their own peril.

The problem is that just like violent crime rates don't fully explain feelings of safety, things that make one feel unsafe don't fully explain all violent crime. Since Bob Lee's murder did not seem to be a result of either drug-induced psychosis or a mugging gone wrong, Joe made the correct call that the murder was likely unrelated to either of those issues.

That all being said, it appears that you have issues with him based on unrelated reporting on an issue you seem to care deeply about. A good of a time as any to examine any potential biases you might have when receiving new information so you don't accidentally embarrass yourself on Twitter!

[throwaway292939]

> I think you are trying to pigeonhole Eskenazi's argument into the standard "progressives don't care about crime" punditry that's popular on the right. I would suggest re-reading the column with a more open mind. His argument is that feeling safe is as important, if not more important from a policymaking perspective, as empirical measures of safety ("real risk") such as violent crime rate.

From the article:

> But the city’s violent crime rate is at a near-historic low, and is lower than most mid-to-large-sized cities.

> Lee’s death, however, was packaged in the media and on social media into a highlight reel of recent San Francisco misfortunes and crimes: large groups of young people brawling at Stonestown; the abrupt closure of the mid-market Whole Foods, leaving San Franciscans just eight other Whole Foods within city limits; the severe beating of former fire commissioner Don Carmignani in the Marina District, allegedly by belligerent homeless people — it all adds up to a feeling of a city coming undone.

> This manner of coverage, however, does not capture the actual lived experience of the vast majority of San Franciscans.

I'm reading his article again.. where is his argument that feeling safe is important?

He states that violent crime is low, and that newspapers shouldn't be cherry-picking and sensationalizing how bad it is, and that he knows this is not the actual experience for the vast majority of San Franciscans.

[yonran]

> His argument is that feeling safe is as important, if not more important from a policymaking perspective

I’ll set aside his smear that opponents of crime come from suburbs and his strawman that those who oppose crime only want “more cops, stiffer sentences and a return to the Gov. Reagan-era incarceration of the mentally ill”.

His main argument is that by “objective” measures, San Francisco is safe and any increase in danger is only subjective “feelings”, but that “feelings” still affect tourism and politics. The first part (which is the same party line we have seen in the SF Chronicle) is the gaslighting. I want to distinguish between psychological feelings, and risk which can be real but not fully measurable. I hypothesize that for many residents, actual risk of injury, not just feelings, has increased over the past 5 years. There are many mechanisms by which risk may not show up in the citywide violence statistics. Crimes may shift from one neighborhood to another (e.g. to touristy places) or from one demographic to another (e.g. against Asians) while staying steady citywide. Armed robbers may primarily target wealthier people who give them what they want, but victims who have less to lose and resist are more likely to be attacked. Underage thieves may injure you through reckless driving instead of attacks. With fewer pedestrians commuting after COVID-19, a street that is more dangerous may get fewer violent incidents. Or victims may underreport crimes. The point is, when there are so many changes in behavior among commuters, thieves, and addicts, I don’t believe a couple citywide metrics give the whole picture.

> you have issues with him based on unrelated reporting on an issue you seem to care deeply about

That’s just the most egregious example. I learned to read Eskenazi’s articles skeptically because I often read him pushing one lazy narrative but not getting the details right or not getting the other side of the argument. Another example is this article on Proposition 22 https://missionlocal.org/2020/09/prop-22-chronicle-uber-lyft.... In it, he claims that “Airbnb and its ilk skirted paying hotel taxes for years… And they kept their money”, which is not true; Airbnb settled with the city to pay all the 15% hotel back taxes which exceeded their own 6% revenue during that time. And notice how overtly one-sided that article is; it makes no attempt to get the other side of the delivery issue and whether paying drivers who are are waiting at home with their app open makes any business sense for Uber or for taxi dispatch companies for that matter. Another example I recall is the reporting on HubHaus https://missionlocal.org/2019/08/san-francisco-rental-platfo... which claimed without evidence that the room share company was “exacerbating the already onerous cost of housing” and showed very little interest in what it would take to actually follow the definition of family, and whether the definition of family itself is what is exacerbating the housing crisis. He is good at ferreting out a certain kind of bureaucratic corruption (e.g. DBI), but he turns a blind eye to other kinds of corrupt rules that benefit incumbents that politicians like Arron Peskin (coincidentally one of his favorite sources) specialize in. In other words, he’s biased, and you often get only one side from his articles.

[rideontime]

In all fairness, I’ll be impressed when he posts a retraction and apology.

[ginger2016]

I concur! He should apologize.

[ginger2016]

I know in Twitter everyone is inflammatory, however a CEO should exercise restraint and show leadership, and hold judgement until facts are clear, in this case he clearly failed.

[phone[phone]]

Don't hold your breath.

[rideontime]

Of course, I know better. He's too cowardly to come out and say what he's feeling, but just take a look at his likes from today. Apparently he thinks that journalist should be jailed for embarrassing him. https://twitter.com/garrytan/likes

[ipqk]

Holy crap, I went through his likes today, and he's just a fucking awful person.

I should probably get off hacker news and stop supporting this guy's company.

[toss1]

This is a prime example of the growing stated perception outside of tech bubble, "tech bros killing each other and blaming the homeless". It didn't take long for people to start posting that.

Yes, street crime is itself a taking of rights and freedom of the people living and working in a place, and it is more important to contain it than to maximize the criminals' rights.

But this shows that the reputation of the tech industry is pretty much underwater, and premature postings like that don't help.

[ipqk]

I think he un-retweeted it, and then re-tweeted someone else still blaming it on "lawlessness".

[kaycebasques]

They really do some amazing reporting. Based on the fact that this is the first article I'm seeing on this topic, it seems that Mission Local may have got the scoop [1] on the Chronicle and other big newspapers on this high-profile topic. That is a big deal for journalists (if I recall correctly) because it means you're doing better original reporting and you're more connected to the neighborhood.

[1] https://grammarist.com/idiom/get-the-scoop/

[bombcar]

Any small local news organizations will almost ALWAYS get the scoop on the big ones, for local news. Because the vast majority of "big" news things are a division of some conglomerate and just regurgitate Reuters.

[kaycebasques]

The Chronicle still does a lot of local reporting.

[justizin]

Yes and they rushed to cast this tragedy as part of an imagined crime epidemic.

There are some good contributors to the Chronicle, but they skew fairly conservative for SF and have for a long time.

[wand3r]

> Imagined crime epidemic

Is the SF/Bay Area really having an "imagined" crime epidemic? Serious question. Seems the crime rate is very high

[fdr]

Property crime has been high for decades. Violent crime moves here and there, but is somewhat unremarkable for an American city.

[emodendroket]

Most local newspapers these day are glorified advertising circulars with maybe one or two reporters they actually employ.

[Loughla]

The local papers I am familiar with in my region are literally (not figuratively) just re-print houses for prior-approved PR stories from local schools, businesses, and government offices.

It's really quite sad.

[JieJie]

This is great writing, "the abrupt closure of the mid-market Whole Foods, leaving San Franciscans just eight other Whole Foods within city limits". What a scoop, brilliantly delivered.

[kaycebasques]

Edit: I thought that this comment was tangential and sarcastic but I was incorrect.

[gowld]

It's a quote from the article. You might have missed it.

https://missionlocal.org/2023/04/bob-lee-killing-arrest-made...

It's an expression of appreciation for the author's saracastic humor, reporting on the thinness of evidence for anti-SF commentary, a major theme of the OP article.

[kaycebasques]

OK, I totally misunderstood the comment in that case. I have edited my previous comment. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

[gnicholas]

Sure, it's a cute jab, but 8 WFs in an entire city is not that many. Even if you have a car, there are large swaths of the city (Richmond, Sunset), where a WF is a bit of a slog during regular traffic (and worse during rush hour). And of course, many city dwellers don't have cars, so having to lug groceries up SF's famously hilly streets is not great for more than a fraction of a mile or so.

[majormajor]

The actual city of SF is not that large. Something like 800k people. Not very big of a footprint either. 8 is no small number.

Austin TX has 964K, is where Whole Foods was founded, and has 5 according to the locator on their website.

Los Angeles has almost 4M people and has 7. (As well as ones in various other cities that are intertwined with the weird geographic footprint, but also 4 times as many people in the "official" city limits for those 7.)

[mustacheemperor]

This seems like a good opportunity to plug SF's great independent grocers. Please do not sleep on The Good Life Grocery, Rainbow, or the several Gus' Community Market locations around town, not to mention all the other small grocers around the city.

Some more great places in my local riding area: Midtown Market in Dogpatch (pricey but really good produce), and Glen Canyon Market, which was recently acquired by Gus. A cute small grocery store with a butcher counter just opened near Portrero, and there's also Avedano's butcher on Cortland Ave (near a Good Life) and Olivier's in Dogpatch.

Swiping my hand over a mystery panel to pay for my groceries is very cool at WF, but there's no shortage of great places to restock the fridge and pantry all over SF, and where the money you spend is going more to local places and locals.

[gcheong]

Good thing there are other groceries and farmer's markets and Prime delivery to fill the gap left by the one WF closing then. Living in the Sunset, yes it's true if I want to go to a Whole Foods I'd have to either drive, or bike or take public transit to the one over by the Haight, the one down at Stonestown mall or the one on Upper Market. But I don't usually because the Safeway is within walking distance and that's good enough for me most of the time and if not there's Other Avenues, Sunset Super, 22nd and Irving, and Gus's all relatively close by just to name a few off the top of my head.

[prpl]

Haight WF is about as close as Masonic Trader Joe’s (and somehow easier to park at) for most in the richmond and sunset - though Calmart is better than both.

Andronico’s was much better than both before safeway took over

[magicalist]

People in the Richmond and Sunset have closer Whole Foods than the one that closed.

[kylestlb]

If you live in the Sunset you most likely have a car.

[asdfman123]

If you like this article, think about subscribing to them.

Lots of little papers like this seem healthy and then unceremoniously go out of business because they don't make enough money in ad revenue to pay their journalists like 45k/yr. That's not a typo: that's how much Bay Area reporters make.

Support local journalism!

[jeffbee]

Mission Local is great. We are blessed with a wealth of local journalism like Mission Local, Cityside, even SF Standard if I hold my nose about the fact that it is controlled by a reactionary political movement. It is why I never understood the whining about "support your local newspaper". There's no chance of me ever subscribing to the Chronicle. I donate to these other, better news outlets instead.

[shuckles]

SF Standard has some of the city’s best journalists on staff, and you’d be hard pressed to identify how Moritz is influencing their coverage decisions.

[biomcgary]

I have not heard of the SF Standard (I'm not in CA). You seem to value SF Standard (at some level) even while disagreeing with underlying political stances. That juxtaposition seem unfortunately rare in the current era, could you expand on what value they create (for you)?

[jeffbee]

SF Standard does not seem to have an overt reporting bias. So far I find their articles informative. But they are 100% funded by a PAC the agenda of which I do not fully embrace.

[okdood64]

Yes, I think this was one of the better pieces of journalism I've read recently. It was a breath of fresh air.

[jkestner]

I wish more reporting would have the level of context and data that this piece does, instead of lazily quoting experts with an agenda.

[pentagrama]

I'm in doubt if is ethical journalism reveal the name and LinkedIn profile of an alleged killer, sounds like doxing to me.

[microtherion]

Given how heavily and uncritically the initial theory of a homeless/lower class person as the killer was promoted (not least of all here on HN), I think it made a lot of sense to reveal that the actual suspect now arrested worked in the tech industry and was acquainted with the victim.

Beyond that, it's nor clear to me that revealing the actual name or other personal details of the suspect serves a legitimate purpose of advancing justice or society; however, it is not out of keeping with journalistic practice in other criminal cases in California. Suspects' names get printed in newspapers for far lower profile crimes all the time.

[bink]

I can see some benefit in that potential witnesses might be more likely to come forward. If I hear of a terrible crime and it turns out my neighbor was arrested for it I might potentially have some valuable information to contribute. I'm still not sure if it's a good thing though.

[simplotek]

> (...) I think it made a lot of sense to reveal that the actual suspect now arrested (...)

Have we learned nothing from Reddit's Boston bomber witch hunt?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_of_Sunil_Tripathi

[hluska]

What a terrible comparison. There is a massive difference between identifying someone who has been charged and randomly naming brown people the killer.

[jamespo]

I've learnt that's a poor comparison to this

[simplotek]

Please explain what leads you to believe that doxing suspects, exactly like in the Boston bomber case, is a reasonable idea.

[dapearce]

In this example there is enough evidence the suspect has been arrested by police, which is a public record. Not remotely the same as the Boston bomber reddit-misidentification case.

[hluska]

It is painfully simple. Charges are a matter of public record. Naming random brown people as terrorists only creates innocent victims.

Honestly, it’s time to let this idea die. It’s not only completely wrong but it’s not making you look very bright.

[sowbug]

Arrests sure better be public record in a free country.

[kstenerud]

In Germany it's not public, nor are you allowed to publish the name of a person arrested. This is to protect the individual's privacy and shield them from public retribution and prejudice, which I think is a far more enlightened stance.

In America, the stigma of an arrest follows you for the rest of your life.

[luckylion]

I agree, especially pre-trial. I disagree post-trial. When a judgement has been made "in the name of the people", the people should be able to know the name.

[Timon3]

But forever? Shouldn't a person who does wrong have the option to actually make things right? Should a mistake somebody makes at a young age follow them until their death, even if they have gone through the actual judicial punishment? If there's no way for them to ever "make things right" in the eyes of society, it doesn't leave many choices - which is a big contributor to the high rates of repeat criminals.

[luckylion]

I don't think you can "make right" a murder. You can be punished for it, but that doesn't absolve you of the deed, and it shouldn't force others to forgive or accept you.

Yes, it's a tough deal, but let's be honest here: it's nothing compared to what they do to their victims. And there's really very few cases per decade that will make you a nation-wide celebrity. For the most part, moving 50km away will for all intents and purposes make you "a new man".

You can often attain forgiveness by showing regret. Many don't, which is why they aren't forgiven, and aren't happily accepted by society when they get released. Who could blame them? And why should we help them wash away their sins and treat it as a secret?

I also don't buy the excuse that recidivism is significantly driven by rejection from society. It's the easy way to explain your behavior when truth and reflection would paint a different picture, but one that's harder to accept: that we're responsible for our deeds, and (yes, with some super specific exceptions) nobody made us do them.

[microtherion]

I don't know how other countries handle this, but I learned a few years ago, somewhat to my surprise, that Switzerland has in some cases provided a high profile murderer with a new identity after they served their sentence, precisely so they could go on with their life: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Günther_Tschanun

[sterlind]

if a politician is arrested on corruption charges, are you not allowed to name them? or if someone's spouse is arrested for their murder, you can't disclose it? or that the suspect is, say, a tech worker rather than a homeless person? how can you possibly cover high-profile crimes if you're not allowed to disclose facts about the suspects?

[pohuing]

You can do it after judge said guilty. High profile just uses initials.

[lazyasciiart]

In America most people are never declared guilty by a judge, they get held in jail until they give up and agree to the prosecutor declaring them guilty instead.

[kstenerud]

> how can you possibly cover high-profile crimes if you're not allowed to disclose facts about the suspects?

It's done like this: https://www.dw.com/en/german-police-arrest-25-suspects-over-...

[sterlind]

that exposes quite a lot more information than I expected, given OP's description of how the privacy laws work. it includes the suspects' ages, backgrounds and (very distinctive) first names. it took me a mere second to find their full names by Googling - there's not many 71-year old noblemen named "Heinrich XIII"!

so I guess it's a figleaf? good for them, I guess?

[Waterluvian]

It’s fundamental to the principles of habeas corpus that the overwhelming power of the government to arrest, prosecute, and imprison someone be wielded in broad daylight.

[anonymouskimmer]

Not everyone needs to know for habeas corpus to work. Narrow lamplight can be just as efficacious.

[iudqnolq]

The UK is a good example of a generally* similarly free country without guaranteed public access to arrest records. This balances the potential benefit to the public from knowing against the definite harm to the accused.

(*There are definitely significant ways each is less free than the other and there's no rigorous way to say which is worse)

[tqi]

I think the person you're replying to is saying that:

- If a government arrests someone, it should be forced to acknowledge both that it happened AND give the reason for arrest

- Media should have the right to report on arrests, without interference from the government.

This protects from abuses of power against for example political opponents. Of course, these same laws make arrests for common crimes problematic for the people being arrested. And I don't think it is feasible to codify an objective line between the two.

[iudqnolq]

Yes and I'm presenting a counterexample of a free country where the media does not have the unlimited right to report on arrests.

[sowbug]

Good point on the media's right to report. Prior restraint is icky except in the most exigent and extreme circumstances.

[sowbug]

Yes, it's a balance. I don't want my government hustling people into vans and disappearing, but I don't want minor indiscretions to become media-amplified scarlet letters, either.

A reasoned discussion begins with an acknowledgment that the public has a right to monitor its government, and that individuals have a right to privacy. Unfortunately, the USA PATRIOT Act substantially dimmed the sunlight on government law-enforcement activity, and the Dobbs decision severely weakened privacy as an emergent constitutional right.

Edit: As I was writing this reply, I came up with an interesting legal theory. The right to publicity is traditionally understood as a celebrity's right to control the commercialization of his or her image. Might we say that the modern attention economy has turned everyone into a potential celebrity, and thus that everyone should be allowed to control the commercial publicity of their persona? This would draw a potentially meaningful line between the public's right to know (which I expect is popular) and the media's right to commercially exploit the salacious details of an accused's crime (which is, sadly, extremely popular; otherwise, it wouldn't be as prevalent as it is today). I'm sure attorneys and legal scholars have already explored this idea.

[RoyGBivCap]

Convictions*

People get arrested, their name smeared, presumed guilty, and then go to trial and it wasn't them. Lives get ruined over for crimes not committed.

IIRC, Israel doesn't publish arrests, just convictions. So it's not a new idea.

Florida's "sunshine law" mandates arrests be public record, and it's lead everyone to believe there's more crazy people in Florida than anywhere else, which just isn't true.

Sure we shouldn't have black sites where people just get nabbed and disappeared either, but "guilty until proven innocent" is just a fancy idea if your life gets ruined before the trial. Look at what happened to Rittenhouse. Kicked out of his college and then "not guilty on all counts" at trial. It's a miscarriage of justice.

[bialpio]

There's also presumption of innocence so publishing personal info of someone not convicted is akin to doxxing to me.

Edit: typos.

[aeternum]

Is the public's failure to understand the meaning of the word alleged a problem with journalism?

The police arresting people in secret has historically been .. problematic at best.

[olliej]

There are two issues that compete:

1. Police secretly arrest people and toss them in jail never to be heard of again

2. People are erroneously arrested, there name is publicly attached to a crime through a bunch of reporting, then they're released before trial or found not guilty

The first is fairly clear, the 2nd is a problem because being released is generally not news, so google search or whatever forever links the persons name to a crime they didn't do. Then you have a bunch of humanisms: the person the lawyered there way out of the crime, or "they must have been involved otherwise why would they be arrested", etc. So there is a permanent cost to being publicly arrested for something you didn't do even if justice happens and you don't ever see court. That's why you some times see people in the judicial system releasing "this person is absolutely innocent" type press releases.

[anigbrowl]

It's hard to believe that you're not aware the name is published by the police following an arrest, which was almost certainly the subject of a warrant application.

[hindsightbias]

I’ll go with the perp being rich and white. LinkedIn has already been deleted. No conspiracy needed.

[RamblingCTO]

What? What has the race and the finances have to do with anything? He's not white, he's of Iranian descent I believe. The LinkedIn is still online. Even tho I disagree with doxing someone that might turn out not to be the victim.

[doctoboggan]

Depends on the track record of the journalist and whether you believe that they did their due diligence and have good sourcing.

[hker999]

It's only because he's a white male. Person of color suspects rarely get doxxed by the media and the story usually disappears the next day.

[mkehrt]

I cannot praise Eskenazi highly enough as a reporter.

[throwaway894345]

I don’t know anything about Mission Local, but reading of the article prior to reading your comment left me with the impression that the author was really invested in this being a targeted killing. The first part of the article started strong, and then it felt like the author was grinding a political axe, though I’m sure it’s in response to other articles grinding different axes. It was a well-written article to be sure, but I guess I’ve grown weary of motivated journalism.

[not2b]

Looks like the author had very good reason to think that this was a targeted killing, as in, if the suspect did it it was a targeted killing.

Jumping to the conclusion that some homeless guy or street thug did it, without any evidence, is also something that people with axes to grind do on a regular basis.

[throwaway894345]

I’m not disputing that the killing was targeted; like I said, the first part of the article (which had already expressed the targeted nature pretty clearly) was solid. It was the subsequent axe grinding that I took issue with.

[johnea]

Yep, just more proof that San Fransisco is overrun with the criminal wealthy...

[say_it_as_it_is]

Joe Eskenazi shared the identity of the alleged killer, potentially ruining the life/career of someone who may not have killed Bob.

[dang]

That's standard practice isn't it? If you get arrested for a newsworthy crime, the news will say your name while saying "alleged" to make it clear you haven't been convicted yet.

[phendrenad2]

I don't think hiding the names of accused suspects is realistic. Instead, we should try to educate the public and remind them that people are still innocent until proven guilty.

[Aloisius]

The jail shared it. It's a public record.

[etc-hosts]

Looks like the SFPD waited a while to verify a possible narrative of what they believe happened before making an arrest.

If it's all made up, that would be amazing. Doubtful.

[paulgb]

Eh, there’s a reason we have a system where the accused has the right to make their case in court. An arrest is a strong signal but by design has a lower burden of proof than it takes to punish someone within the system. Given that being publicly accused of a heinous crime can do irreparable damage in the age of Google even if ultimately acquitted, I'd rather err on the side of caution here.