[Timon3]

But forever? Shouldn't a person who does wrong have the option to actually make things right? Should a mistake somebody makes at a young age follow them until their death, even if they have gone through the actual judicial punishment? If there's no way for them to ever "make things right" in the eyes of society, it doesn't leave many choices - which is a big contributor to the high rates of repeat criminals.

[luckylion]

I don't think you can "make right" a murder. You can be punished for it, but that doesn't absolve you of the deed, and it shouldn't force others to forgive or accept you.

Yes, it's a tough deal, but let's be honest here: it's nothing compared to what they do to their victims. And there's really very few cases per decade that will make you a nation-wide celebrity. For the most part, moving 50km away will for all intents and purposes make you "a new man".

You can often attain forgiveness by showing regret. Many don't, which is why they aren't forgiven, and aren't happily accepted by society when they get released. Who could blame them? And why should we help them wash away their sins and treat it as a secret?

I also don't buy the excuse that recidivism is significantly driven by rejection from society. It's the easy way to explain your behavior when truth and reflection would paint a different picture, but one that's harder to accept: that we're responsible for our deeds, and (yes, with some super specific exceptions) nobody made us do them.

[Timon3]

> You can be punished for it, but that doesn't absolve you of the deed, and it shouldn't force others to forgive or accept you.

Sure, people don't have to forgive you. But why stop at murder? Why not publish every bad thing a person does, so everyone can freely choose whether to forgive you or not? How do we decide what to publish, and what not?

> Yes, it's a tough deal, but let's be honest here: it's nothing compared to what they do to their victims.

Definitely, we don't have to compare "damage" or anything, the victims are obviously the worst off. But the question is: what is the purpose of life-long punishment? Just to make us feel warm and fuzzy that the bad people have it bad, without any consideration for the effect this has on them and consequently us?

> And there's really very few cases per decade that will make you a nation-wide celebrity. For the most part, moving 50km away will for all intents and purposes make you "a new man".

That doesn't matter in the slightest in our digital age. No matter where you go, no matter what you do, everyone around you can quickly find out what you've done if it's public information. Literally, if you told me your name, I could tell you in a couple of minutes. And this happens regularly, and is spread throughout social circles, meaning that once "the lid is off" you'll have to move another 50km to have another calm couple of weeks.

> You can often attain forgiveness by showing regret. Many don't, which is why they aren't forgiven, and aren't happily accepted by society when they get released.

How many? Is this based on statistics, or on a feeling?

> I also don't buy the excuse that recidivism is significantly driven by rejection from society. It's the easy way to explain your behavior when truth and reflection would paint a different picture, but one that's harder to accept: that we're responsible for our deeds, and (yes, with some super specific exceptions) nobody made us do them.

Actually, you're taking the easy route. Putting everything on personal responsibility removes any responsibility from you for the decision to punish them for life, and consequently the actions they take due to your decision. It's nice that you don't buy the excuse, but studies show time and time again that this is a big factor, especially if you compare the American legal system with more developed nations.

So you're making decisions for which we know there will be bad consequences, but your hands are clean, since you didn't do it directly! But usually people develop past this view of morality and recognize that you're not just responsible for what you do directly, but also for what your decisions lead to.

[microtherion]

I don't know how other countries handle this, but I learned a few years ago, somewhat to my surprise, that Switzerland has in some cases provided a high profile murderer with a new identity after they served their sentence, precisely so they could go on with their life: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Günther_Tschanun