[pigsty]

Transgender people have existed throughout history and on every corner of the earth. They’re documented in basically any society with written records.

But for some reason, in 2023, people (mainly Americans) think it’s something new and they demand to be angry about it.

[beebeepka]

Just last week, when I was at a techno music gathering, a couple of my friends saw a guy in drag (it was more like over the top ball dress really) and were like "whoaa, did you see that".

I had to remind them that we used to have scores of trannies attending these events in the past and and no one cared. But now, after the latest round of propaganda, we, as a society, fear them again.

[altacc]

Alternative cultures have always had alternative niches of events but clubbing in the early days, at least in Europe, was often largely a culture of acceptance. Age, gender, attire, whatever... acceptance was high. As I started to age and dance music became more popular and more commercialised, the number of safe, relaxed and accepting cubs started to shrink as club culture became normal culture. There are still alternative club scenes out there, they are just more protective and secretive to stop the dilution of their culture.

[beebeepka]

Exactly. Even here in backwards Bulgaria we had large (as in thousands of people) electronic one-night music events where trans/cross/etc people would hang on ropes, perform stuff and generally have a good time along with everyone else.

Some of the best small time events 20 years ago were held in a popular gay. No one cared. No one.

Now it's 2023 and extremists on both ends are accusing you of either showing too much respect to the "weirdos", or not using the most up to date and precise language to describe things that are murky to begin with.

[Freak_NL]

Good point, but you may want to avoid the word 'tranny' when you mean transvestite (or preferably, cross-dresser or drag queen) or transsexual or transgender person. 'Tranny' has been embraced as a hateful slur and is generally considered offensive and derogatory.

(Cf.: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/tranny)

[beebeepka]

Maybe this is why I am being downvoted. What should I use instead? I don't exactly follow the waves of nuspeak

[Freak_NL]

Your example hints at a man who dresses like a woman (but usually not transitioning or being uncomfortable with their (day-to-day) manhood), so cross-dresser (or drag queen if it is really over the top, well, drag queenish, which the ballgown sort of implies).

'Tranny' being derogatory isn't really new-speak. The only recent shift I know of is that men who dress up like (feminine) women tend to prefer 'cross-dresser' over 'transvestite' nowadays. The problem with 'tranny' in this context is also that it now mostly refers to transgender people (in a derogatory way) rather than cross-dressers.

[beebeepka]

Thanks. Have to say cross dresser fits much better given the context. I can no longer edit my post and will have to take the heat instead. Lesson learned.

[chowells]

Are you seriously equating treating people with respect with nuspeak? The post you replied to already answered your question. I'm just going to suggest that you should focus more on respecting others and less on thinking you're debating.

[beebeepka]

My apologies. It was an honest question but I can see how it might be taken as something more than that. A link to wiki was not what I asked for.

Since we're giving each other life advices, I suggest one spoon of not jumping to conclusions. You're not exactly showing much respect for me here.

[MrPatan]

No. It's all about children. Nobody cares what adults do between themselves. Nopbody did, nobody does. Read all those "panic" stories again. It's about the children. Leave them alone.

[pigsty]

Every invented moral panic is about “the children.” Rock music, Jewish people “corrupting” the youth, satanists, trans people. It’s sad that people still buy into these stories meant to outrage people and seed divide, anger, and violence. And it’s always pushed by people with clear political and financial agendas picking fringe extreme and uncommon examples pretending it’s everywhere.

Someday you’ll forget this was ever a thing and pretend you never bought into it. It’s what everyone does during every invented outrage. You’ve been told to be angry about some fringe thing and believed it. 10 years from now there’ll be another big thing to be angry about.

You’re not angry “for the children.” Please drop the act.

[MrPatan]

Nope. What's you explanation then for why literally nobody cared about adult trans people just a few years ago?

The difference with the others is that you can stop liking dumb edgy stuff when you grow up, but you can't grow new tits.

As for the financial agenda... yeah, exactly. Just follow the money. What did you find?

[heavyset_go]

> Nope. What's you explanation then for why literally nobody cared about adult trans people just a few years ago?

What? They've been trying to ban trans people from bathroom via legislation since before 2014 and have been screaming about pronouns for nearly the same amount of time.

[pigsty]

> What's you explanation then for why literally nobody cared about adult trans people just a few years ago?

Because it’s an invented political scapegoat, just like countless others. Trans people were out and about 10 years ago and nobody gave a shit. I’m from a small town in Appalachia and my grandma had a trans friend that was out and open 30 years ago. They stopped by when I was a kid and we treated her as a normal human. Nobody gave a shit.

Social media told you to be angry about people that’ve been around forever. You chose to only pay attention recently and get angry.

Right wing organizations are making huge buckets of cash from donations and “anti-woke” brand campaigns targeting trans people, getting gullible people to think being trans is some new trend and they need to fight back. Normal people have known trans people for several decades and we are absolutely bewildered that people like you are suddenly outraged about people we’ve known all our lives. Same with how 15 years ago ”the gays” were going to destroy the world.

[MrPatan]

> Social media told you to be angry about people that’ve been around forever. You chose to only pay attention recently and get angry.

Again, no. It's only when they started telling children it was a good idea to sterilize themselves. Just don't do irreversible damage to children, it's that easy. Find other shibboleths to identify good communists that don't involve chopping bits off kids.

[anilakar]

A vocal minority is visibly complaining about another vocal minority visibly complaining. Thank god we have social media that enabled this in the first place.

[Timon3]

This feels a lot like people during the civil rights movement complaining about "a loud minority complaining, and another minority complaining about that". Not everything is equivalent.

[watwut]

Vocal minority is complaining about another vocal minority targeting them, including violently. It is also complaining about other vocal minority trying to make their art and fun illegal (drag).

[MrPatan]

Illegal to do it for children.

Nobody had or has any problem with what consenting adults do.

[watwut]

First, this is not true. Second, nothing will happen to children when they see men or women crossdressing.

[Timon3]

Where do you get that idea? A number of recent proposals ban it in public, full stop. Did you not know about that?

[friend_and_foe]

Yes, they have. And they have the right to exist and try to live their lives, just like other mentally ill people. But theres a reason societies don't celebrate deviance, and it's because you create social contagion and severely damage people and your society.

[transcoderx]

They did not propose mutilating surgeries to people throughout history. Also trans people existing does not mean there can't be a mass hysteria of kids being told to transition on shoddy scientific evidence.

[vidarh]

They did not propose surgeries because no way of doing so were available until relatively recently.

And your claim of a hysteria of kids being told to transition closely mirrors the claim of kids being pressured into satanic rituals and similar. It's similarly fear driven and bigoted.

[heavyset_go]

They used to/still say the same exact thing about kids being told to be gay.

[transcoderx]

Many gay people now say the trans thing is the new conversion therapy for gay people, as they try to convince a lot of them that they are actually another gender.

[ffidleff]

This is also what whistleblowers at the Tavistock clinic in the UK spoke of, and is part of the reason why the UK's and other countries' health authorities are putting a halt to the affirmation model for children who are questioning gender identity.

[chownie]

> as they try to convince a lot of them that they are actually another gender

Who is "they"?

[transcoderx]

The people pushing transitioning as a solution for kids emotional issues.

[transcoderx]

But we just read that kids were indeed made to believe they had been used for satanic rituals.

There is still no good surgery available. It is a crime to pretend the surgeries work.

[vidarh]

Made to believe they had, yes, not actually used.

The lack of good surgery options does not mean they don't help. If anything the fact that regret rates for transition is well below the regret rates for other cosmetic surgery should be a strong indication that if you actually care about patient wellbeing, it's the other kinds of cosmetic surgery you ought to be focusing on.

[transcoderx]

Citations? If you look into the actual studies, the picture may not be so clear cut. For example a lot if results actually only taje older people into account (who transitioned when they were older).

What analogy do you see to the satanic cult thing? Children were told they had been abused, and many caregivers were being sentenced. Who is being told what in the trans hype? Children are falsely being told they are not trans? Then they falsely believe they are not trans and accuse their doctors? Or how does the analogy work?

[vidarh]

0.2%-0.3% regret: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8105823/

1% regret: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33968550/

Meanwhile, finding actual studies of regret of cosmetic surgery is much harder, because nobody cares or want to stop people from getting boob jobs unless they're trans. So we're stuck with poor quality surveys like this one [1] claiming 65% regret, this one done for a group with a profit motive [2] claiming 65% regret.

For reconstruction after breast cancer, it's not "so bad", with this actual study [3] finding "only" ca 20% moderate to strong regret for even reconstruction, and another ~28% expressing mild regret.

Even for non-cosmetic surgery, such as e.g. hip replacements etc., it's hard to find regret rates as low as for sex reassignment.

Should we ban all of these other treatments too?

[1] https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2640543/Two-third...

[2] https://www.medicalaccidentgroup.co.uk/news/do-you-regret-ha....

[3] https://www.researchgate.net/publication/233371110_Regret_as...

[pigsty]

Belief in mass hysteria is itself the most common form of mass hysteria.

[transcoderx]

So is the mass hysteria now the belief that there is a mass hysteria against trans people, or the belief that there is a mass hysteria of kids being pushed to transition?

[MrPatan]

There was no problem anywhere in the world until they came for the children.