Well, we can define mathematical objects for every gap (impossibility), but most of them will turn out to be inconsistent with our existing mathematical objects, and thus not very useful or interesting. I'd consider that mathematics is the study of consistency and what can be discovered using the simplest possible starting points (axioms).
The classic case would be if mathematicians wanted to assign a value to division by zero. It turns out that if you do allow that to take a value, then it becomes possible to "prove" that any number is equal to any other number. Quite simply, it makes maths less interesting to allow that, but instead having division by zero be undefined appears far more useful/interesting.
> The classic case would be if mathematicians wanted to assign a value to division by zero. It turns out that if you do allow that to take a value, then it becomes possible to "prove" that any number is equal to any other number. Quite simply, it makes maths less interesting to allow that, but instead having division by zero be undefined appears far more useful/interesting.
There are multiple extensions to the real numbers that allow division by zero. One is a real projective line, which has only one infinity so that 1 / 0 = -1 / 0 = infinity
Another is the extended real number line which has positive infinity and negative infinity, so 1 / 0 = +infinity and -1 / 0 = -infinity and they are different from each other
> There are multiple extensions to the real numbers that allow division by zero.
Well, the gotcha is that they redefine the operations so that none of addition, subtraction, multiplication or division are total. Those operations just break in a different number than zero.
You might not have much use for the real projective line when tallying up prices in the grocery store, but projective geometry is definitely very useful. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Projective_geometry
A similar trick (point at infinity or ideal point) is used in projective geometry to distinguish between directions (vectors) and places (points) by using coordinates only: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Projective_geometry
But if you actually want to do calculations with infinities and infinitesimals the surreal numbers might be better suited for that: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surreal_number
They could have been more precise, but they probably shouldn't have to in the space of a comment. The Riemann Sphere defines a value for the expression x/0, and it's often useful, but it fails to uphold the most important property division should have -- that it undoes multiplication. Division by 0 (with some assumptions about not being in a trivially small space and how those operations behave with respect to addition) does lead to contradictions in that latter sense.
"but it fails to uphold the most important property division should have -- that it undoes multiplication"
I'm not sure I follow that as it's most important property. I'm not sure if division could even be defined as an operation that undoes multiplication.
Number theory, fields, and rings I believe make it clear while subtraction and addition can be viewed as the same function; multiplication and division cannot.
Apologize if that's not clear as to why that is; it's been a while since I read up on those being defined.
However I recommend One, Two, Three: Absolutely Elementary Mathematics by David Berlinski that gives in my opinion pretty good layman understanding of these nuances and number theory.
Take a look into division rings as a concept. The usual definition for division in rings and fields is via multiplicative inverses for some subset of the nonzero elements. Not all algebraic spaces have division, but that doesn't change what it is, especially from the "number theory, fields, and rings" point of view.
Unless you're talking about some higher-order concept?
Edit: For a bit of completeness, what's happening with the Riemann Sphere is that the algebraic definition is being extended in a way that has some useful analytic, topological, and quality-of-life properties, but which is no longer wholly compatible with the underlying algebra. The algebraic issues are isolated to the extra point at infinity, so they're not terrible to work around, but the operation in question is a proper extension of the underlying algebraic definitions -- much how the gamma function in no way can be defined as multiplication of integers but is a useful extension of the factorials nonetheless.
Division is multiplication by the multiplicative inverse. Subtraction is addition by the additive inverse. Both division and subtraction undo their corresponding operation. Multiplying by a (provided it’s not zero) is undone by dividing by a. Adding a is undone by subtracting a.
In a ring the elements form a group under addition and thus every element has an additive inverse. The additive identity element, let’s call it e, has the property that ea = e and ae = e. For this reason we use 0 instead of e. In a nontrivial ring 0 can’t have a multiplicative inverse because if it did then every element would be equal to the multiplicative identity (which is unique).
Okay so if you can get to a ring without a multiplicative inverse and then applying that operation to the ring forms it into a field then wouldn't it be fair to say that division is not really the opposite of multiplication the same way that subtraction absolutely is for addition?
That's a good example of where defining division by zero leads to interesting maths, but it ends up sacrificing some of the usual rules of arithmetic, so it comes down to a choice of which is more useful in the relevant circumstance.
This just goes to show that you really have to be careful when slinging out math facts. I've done some under grad maths and the only line on that page that I understand is
"The extended complex numbers are useful in complex analysis because they allow for division by zero in some circumstances, in a way that makes expressions such as 1 / 0 = ∞ 1/0=\infty well-behaved."
It clearly does not satisfy a primitive understanding of 1/0.
1/0 is the limit of x/y as x approaches 1 and y approaches 0. It works fine if you choose to put a a point there called \infinity, with an appropriate notion of nearness.
An example where this does work quite nicely has to do with Bring radicals or "ultraradicals [1]. One of the most important results from Galois theory is that the quintic equation has no solution using standard radicals. But the introduction of "Bring radicals" allows quintic equations to be formally solved. As far as I'm aware though, Bring radicals only work for quintic equations in general and don't work for 6th order or higher polynomials, so your bang for the buck is a somewhat limited.
This is assuming that Θ interacts with arithmetic operations the usual way (that is, ℝ ∪ {Θ} is a field), which the person you're replying to did not say.
The most common definition of division being the inverse of multiplication.
if b ≠ 0 then the equation a/b = c is equivalent to a = b × c. Assuming that a/0 is a number c, then it must be that a = 0 × c = 0. However, the single number c would then have to be determined by the equation 0 = 0 × c, but every number satisfies this equation, so we cannot assign a numerical value to 0/0
Thanks, this definition does seem problematic. In any case, it is not the only possible definition and in a/0=c, c does not have to be defined as a real number. We can define it as similarly to complex number with new rules that do not collide with existing reals.
There's a couple of mentions in other comments about the Riemann Sphere (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riemann_sphere) which does define division by zero, but sacrifices the numbers forming a field under addition and multiplication.
is a kind of sentence that is almost never true, and even if it were, it would be impossible to prove that someone hadn't jotted a valid definition on a napkin somewhere. In this case it is certainly not true (as others have mentioned: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riemann_sphere ). Now, specifying a definition for division by zero does require you to be careful about how the other operations extend to this new number, but there are perfectly consistent (and useful!) ways to do so.
Thanks - I was not aware that theorem provers often allow "division" by zero.
Looking at https://xenaproject.wordpress.com/2020/07/05/division-by-zer... I see that they don't use mathematical division, but define a slightly different operator with an additional condition for handling zero. This appears to be far more convenient for theorem provers.
The trade-off would be that "division" is no longer the inverse of multiplication.
Ah, thanks for the link. I suggested the reason that Isabelle/HOL does this is because it requires total functions and you don't have a convenient way to do refinement types. But that's not an adequate explanation, because Lean does allow such refinements, but it still turns out to be inconvenient for division.
I will note that setting a - b = 0 for a <= b is pretty standard, and is often called "partial subtraction."
I believe you but that’s kind of mind blowing. How do they avoid the seemingly-obvious corollary that 0*0 = X, for all values of X? That is, just multiplying both sides of “x/0 = 0” by zero.
Functions in these logics are total, so if you want division to be a function (and you probably do), it has to assign something to division by 0.
It would be acceptable to assign an unspecified object from the domain, for which you have no non-trivial theorems, and so all your real theorems must have a precondition about the denominator being non-zero. But if you specify a candidate like 0, you can get some theorems which don't have the precondition. Consider:
I appreciate the explanation and I’m in no position to disagree, but ugh. Seems like it would work just as well to define x/0 as 6, or e, or -15. I’m sure that’s not the case. But as a long time tech person who’s always considered underflow/overflow to be a hack to get around limitations of hardware, it offends be a bit to find conditionals in abstract math. Undefined seems cleaner, like null, since it implicitly says “don’t treat this as a normal value that you can operate on”.
I suspect the real math people know what they’re doing more than I do, though.
It's not making a multiplicative inverse of 0 exist though, it just defines a '/' operator that is slightly different from our usual one (i.e. a/b = a*b^(-1))
On the contrary, the extensions can be very useful and interesting. You do typically have to sacrifice something, like commutativity in the case of quaternions, but it will often be worth it.
Yep, an extension is only interesting if it is a true extension, i.e. retains the properties of the thing being extended. So complex numbers are interesting as an an extension of reals since reals are isomorphic to the subring. Likewise with quaternions and reals / complex numbers.
> we can define mathematical objects for every gap (impossibility), but most of them will turn out to be inconsistent with our existing mathematical objects
Is the short answer it's not parsimonious or useful?
"too complicated" is a weird way to say "provides a concise and consistent way to model superficially diverse phenomena and show how similar they really are" .
matrices over reals are ok especially if you keep to SO(n) but you can get very weird maths as polynomial quotients. they do not look to me like they are very similar. complex plane and extensions of all kinds of weird. seems hacky rather than illuminating to me. but then i only really like complex numbers as a field since analytic functions are so nice
Given any polynomial P (e.g. x^2 + 1) over a filed F (e.g. reals) we can form: `R = F[X]/P`
This is an algebraic "set" that supports addition, substraction, multiplication and has 0,1 but not division in general. Elements are elements of F and a new symbol X that satisfies "P(X) = 0".
Examples:
R[X]/(x^2 + 1) = C
R[X]/x = R
C[X]/(x^2 + 1) = C + C.x
R[X]/1 = 0
# Properties
- If the polynomial P is invertible, i.e. has degree 0 and is not zero, then the resulting ring is zero R[X]/P = 0. This is what happens in the example x = x-1 (which corresponds to P = x - 1 - x = -1).
- If the polynomial P has degree 1 (i.e. P=aX+b), then the equation P=0 is equivalent to x=-b/a, representing an element already present in R, hence the ring R[X]/P is equal to R.
- If the polynomial P is irreducible (i.e. not a product of two proper polynomials) then the quotient R[X]/P is a field. This happens in the case R[x]/(x^2 + 1) which results in the complex numbers.
- If the polynomial P is a product of two polynomials P1,P2 which don't have common divisors, then R[X]/P = R[X]/P1 + R[X]/P2, this happens in the case that C[X]/(x^2+1), since P = x^2 + 1 factors as (x+i)*(x-i) in C. The equivalent result for integers is known as Chinese Remainder Theorem.
You mean like $x^{-1} = 1/x$? That's called a rational function[1], but not a polynomial, so it's not an element of the polynomial ring[2]. Of course you can also consider the algebra of rational functions, but this is a field[3] (almost by definition: you make every polynomial invertible), which means that modding out anything other than 0 yields the zero ring[4].
Thanks for this comment! Quick note - for clarity and conformity with standard notation, it would be good to have parentheses around the denominators of those ring quotients (in those cases like x^2 - 1 where they contain multiple additive terms).
both of these are reasonable. if you have an `x` such that `x + n = x` implies that `n = 0`. (assuming x still has an additive inverse)
in other words you just invented modular arithmetic which is a very reasonable thing to invent.
1/0 is maybe a bit trickier and leads you to invent projective spaces.
Negative numbers are sort of imaginary to begin with come to think of it. Actually I think I'm getting flashbacks now to my childhood when my older brother blew my mind with this concept.
You can do that, but there's a tradeoff of losing properties that otherwise hold.
For example, by adding the imaginary numbers, there is no longer an ordering compatible with addition and multiplication (ordering compatible with multiplication means that z > 0 and x > y implies x * z > y * z: assuming that, if 0 < i, then 0 = 0 * i < i * i = -1, absurd, or if 0 > i and thus 0 < -i, then 0 = 0 * -i < -i * -i = -1, absurd).
You can certainly add a number x such that x = x + 1 (e.g. what is commonly called an infinity or NaN), but that implies no longer having additive left inverses assuming you keep associativity of addition and 0 != 1 (since otherwise 0 = -x + x = -x + (x + 1) = (-x + x) + 1 = 0 + 1 = 1).
We didn't invent 'i' to "solve sqrt(-1)". This is an extremely common misconception about maths and how it progressed that unfortunately people get led into believing by lazy teachers every day
Square roots of negative numbers came up when solving cubic equations, even if the final solutions were all real. This meant the square root of a negative number was not something nonsensical the way you might claim for x^2 = -1, but actually...real in some sense.
Specifically I believe it involved a geometric construction for solving the cubics, which in some cases could not find a solution unless you allowed a square with "negative area".
every polynomial with algebraic coefficients has 'n' solutions (counted with multiplicity)!
so e.g. x^121 + sqrt(7)x^9 + fithroot(22)x^7 + (1+i)x^3 + 22/7 = 0 has 121 solutions. and they're all algebraic numbers: nothing weird like pi in there.
Those are all just normal imaginary numbers. The question is why, when we can't answer a question, we don't just invent a symbol, say it's the answer to the question, and call it a day.
It's a stupid question, but it's not related to your response.
The question has 300+ upvotes. That’s a proxy for how “good” it is. A person is curious about an aspect of mathematics and posed a well stated question. It is not a stupid question. From their perspective mathematicians appear to do something and they wonder why it can’t be done in other situations. Such a question is the basis of understanding. It is by wondering such things that enables one to gain true understanding of a topic.
Most questions asked by beginners in an area are “stupid” and few as insightful as this one. I’ve taught mathematics at a community college for 20 years and I would be delighted to have been asked this. Usually questions are mundane like, “Why did you add x to both sides?”. Here the person is trying to understand what mathematicians do, what the basis of expanding a number system really involves. This is a fantastic question.
Peoples’ curiosity ought not be labeled as stupid.
> Peoples’ curiosity ought not be labeled as stupid.
Correct. That is why I feel more comfortable asking "stupid" questions to chatGPT. I clarified a lot of concepts in economics through repeatedly asking questions about each concept that pop up in its answers and trying to push it to the limits of what can be defined, explained, etc. One cannot be sure of the truthfulness or soundness of the answers, but they may help.
> It is not a stupid question. From their perspective mathematicians appear to do something and they wonder why it can’t be done in other situations.
I mean, you've already gotten it wrong. This can be done in other situations. Where it isn't done, it isn't done because doing it is pointless, not because there's some bar to giving names to opaque labels.
If something doesn’t behave like 0 in a ring or other algebraic structure then using that label is confusing and simply not done. You are free to use any symbol you want but mathematics is a human endeavor and as such communication is important. Using the symbol 0 signifies something to those with mathematical training. Zero can’t have an multiplicative inverse because anything you call 0 that has an multiplicative inverse makes it behave like something other than zero. So no one would use 0 to describe such an element. In a ring, or abelian group, the symbol 0 is reserved for the additive identity element.
Similarly, I could say snkwoo is what most people call a chair. A grammarian would say there is no word snkwoo even though I just defined it.
Your original comment was wrong and bad. Instead of just admitting it or moving on you’ve decided to double down and make another bad comment.
I'm having trouble following the argument from your premise "it is a stupid question to ask why I referred to a chair as a chair instead of a snkwoo" to your conclusion "it is not a stupid question to ask why, when we have no answer to a question, we don't just say that we do have one".
The answer (to both of those questions!) is, of course, that we could do that, but it wouldn't accomplish anything. Asking the question just means you have no idea what you're saying. Or in other words, it's a stupid question.
The classic case would be if mathematicians wanted to assign a value to division by zero. It turns out that if you do allow that to take a value, then it becomes possible to "prove" that any number is equal to any other number. Quite simply, it makes maths less interesting to allow that, but instead having division by zero be undefined appears far more useful/interesting.