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by nathanlied 1171 days ago
The problem there is that you (and Putin) are viewing NATO's expansion as a curtailing of "Russia's sovereignty". Doing this probably means you take the view that the Spheres of Influence concept was correct: big blocs (Russia, China, US, EU) have an area of political/military/ideological influence that extends past their physical borders, and any other country exerting influence over the countries within those boundaries is de-facto threatening them, even if this influence is by and large the will of the people living in those regions.

The problem with this view is that you are completely alienating the sovereignty of countries within those buffer regions. As an example, take the Baltics: they were under Soviet influence (and actual control, at some points), fought it off, and never felt safe in their independence, because they were within Russia's sphere of influence, even if they weren't within Russia's borders. Within these people's minds, they weren't truly sovereign - the actions of their governments had to appease Russia, or otherwise risk military conflict with a major power, which they would very likely lose, losing what little sovereignty they had. You can certainly see why this would be undesirable for these buffer regions, I hope?

NATO (and later, to a lesser extent militarily but a larger extent economically and culturally, the EU) gave these countries a way out, a hope to get out of the "Russkiy Mir" - Russian World. While Russia was weakened and unwilling to engage in military conflict, they joined NATO, which meant that they no longer needed to pay any mind to Russian influence and sensibilities: if Russia wanted them back, they'd have a fighting chance, instead of being rolled over.

2 comments

I agree spheres of influence is a worrying idea. But couldn’t you argue the same thing is happening to Ukraine under a US sphere of influence? Isn’t that bad too?
Ukrainians want to be a part of free world with so much that civilians fought traitor snipers with homemade shields, with 0 US or NATO troops supporting them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWzI9V3WSnc

On the other side, to have any claim that anyone wants to be a part of russia is to literally invade them: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_green_men_(Russo-Ukrain...

or send FSB colonel to command russian "volunteers" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Igor_Girkin

Here's said war criminal admitting there was near zero support for russian annexation on the ground: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcCqrzctxH4

>But couldn’t you argue the same thing is happening to Ukraine under a US sphere of influence? Isn’t that bad too?

I fully agree with you - NATO -is- the US Sphere of Influence made manifest. The difference (in my view, anyway) is that the US is a better master than Russia or China, at least at this moment in time. The US tries to keep appearances at least by treating its partners as, well, partners. And the NATO military officials do believe we're all peers, at least all the ones I've had personal dealings with. Russia does no such thing (see Belarus).

But an even bigger difference, and the most important one, is this: Ukraine seems to want the EU and NATO. Sure, there's the oft-used argument that Euromaidan had US hand in it, but the US does not by itself mobilize nearly one million people (by Russian sources - so they'd have reason to diminish those numbers). Besides, Ukraine has been moving towards the EU as a country (even if not accompanied by Russian-aligned politicians) for years before Euromaidan. There's the more realistic complication that Eastern Ukraine is far more Euro and NATO skeptical than Western Ukraine. But those are internal Ukrainian problems, and not something neither the US, the EU, nor the Russian Federation should meddle in except for calling for peace, negotiations, and compromise.

If by "the same thing" you mean that Ukraine has requested the assistance of its allies to avoid being being coerced by Russia, then yes the same thing is happening. Why exactly would that be bad?
No, there's a huge difference between people wanting to get closer to a country compared to being coerced by genocide to.
> and Putin

Yes, that's the entire point of comments like this: You can't discount his viewpoint when trying to figure out Russia's next actions.

I'm not saying we should discount Putin's viewpoint and others like him, it is after all one of the very few tools we've got to analyse what he'll do. But just because we acknowledge Putin's viewpoint doesn't mean we agree with him, or that we should allow him to act unchallenged. It is his viewpoint that Ukraine is not a real nation without Russia, and thus has no right to making their own choices for their own country. It is our (including Ukraine's) viewpoint that Ukraine is an independent and sovereign nation with the right to enter economic and military alliances if it so desires. And what's happening in Ukraine at the moment is the result of the clash of those viewpoints. Ukrainians are dying for their nation, and the West is assisting Ukraine while hoping Putin isn't too far gone to just press the button.

Putin said that Russia does not need a world if Russia is not in it. The West is saying they're not okay with a militaristic expansionist nuclear-threatening Russia in the world. I tend to agree with the West's viewpoint, even knowing what may ultimately come from it.