[whats_a_quasar]

The mental health of teens and pre-teens has gotten really bad. This isn't just another "think of the children scare." Since the early 2010s the rate of self harm among girls 10-14 has ~tripled, and the rate of suicide among 10-14 year olds has doubled [1].

And there is now lots of evidence that this is because of social media and smartphones. The social lives of kids have changed drastically, in a way that does not meet their basic psychological needs [2].

I think that people's perceptions of social media are lagging behind the reality on the ground. There have always been moral panics and silly scares about whether the kids are alright, most of which were unfounded. So I think we are now reacting too slowly to the genuine health crisis caused by technology.

[1] https://jonathanhaidt.substack.com/p/the-teen-mental-illness...

[2] https://jonathanhaidt.substack.com/p/social-media-mental-ill...

[heavyset_go]

> https://jonathanhaidt.substack.com/p/the-teen-mental-illness...

I don't necessarily buy the premise that the economy isn't having poor effects on teenagers' mental health just because the GFC is "over". Maybe to financial markets it is, but for people who need to work for a living, things changed since 2008 for the worse.

Teens are more likely to see their parents struggle to pay bills despite working full-time and with two incomes, they're more likely to see their parents face real threats like being unable to afford housing and the consequences that brings, they're going to see how the march of increasing costs of living affects their family in the face of stagnant wages. They also see countless examples of older people who do "everything right", yet are still laid off and can't re-enter the workforce in the same capacity as they had in the past, and are pushed out of their careers entirely.

On top of that, they're being told that they'll be relegated to a life of even worse poverty if they don't get into a good college, but even then, they aren't guaranteed a sustainable job and will have to take out a mortgage-sized loan just to attend. That loan will hang around their necks until they die even if they're only able to find a job that pays $30k a year. And if they want a job that even pays that much, they'll need a degree anyway, because those jobs have degree requirements, too.

I can understand why that would be overwhelming and depressing to teenagers.

[rayiner]

Is that the economy, or is it the way people are socialized to think about the economy, and life in general? The suicide rate in America is four times higher than in the poor developing country I’m from.

[mrguyorama]

In what way is "Mom and dad can't afford rent" Not actually the economy? What is this absurd statement you are making?

[acuozzo]

The poor in your country know how to be poor.

After decades of prosperity, the USA has lost the majority of the generational knowledge and skills that poor people pass on to their children. I've spoken with people who spend almost an entire day's wage on a visit to the local laundromat.

Moreover, the poor here have very little access to mutual aid networks due to the loss of "third places" like churches. It's not uncommon to hear of poor people here having their children taken away by the state because they were just making ends meet and can't afford to pay for child care and have nobody to rely on to watch their kids after school; not even a neighbor.

[autoexec]

Being poor is depressing, but I suspect watching your standard of living decline, your hopes and dreams destroyed, and your children forced to struggle in ways you or your parents never had to before hits harder.

[antifa]

All while being looked down on by your politicians who also shout at you about how it's the greatest thing ever and you should be thankful for it.

[rayiner]

If you have socialized people into a culture where higher housing and educational costs more than offsetting the fact you make more money than your parents did at the same age causes four times as many people to kill the selves than folks in a Bangladeshi village, then I’m sorry the problem is your culture. You have created a culture where people have no resilience to a bump in the road.

[bioemerl]

And the economy isn't even that bad in general. I don't understand this tendency on the internet just so overly exaggerate how bad the economy is. Unemployment is near record lows right now. We have a bit of wage growth lag in the last few years thanks to everything going on, but up until then we had pretty strong wage growth.

I don't know if I'm just in a bubble because I don't live in one of the big cities with crazy housing prices? Right now it seems to be better time to be out and getting a job than any.

.... Unless you're a programmer.

[autoexec]

> And the economy isn't even that bad in general. I don't understand this tendency on the internet just so overly exaggerate how bad the economy is. Unemployment is near record lows right now.

Unemployment doesn't tell us a whole lot. There's more people out of work today than before. Unemployment numbers don't tell you about the people whose only employment is part time or pays a fraction of what it used to pay either.

In the US evictions are on the rise, homelessness is on the rise, child poverty is on the rise, household debt is on the rise, utility service disconnections are rising, 80% of people in the US think their children will grow to be worse off than they are. None of this signals a healthy economy. The economy is making many already rich people even more money than ever before while the middle class increasingly struggles and the poor face ever rising expenses.

Outside of the tech world, this is a great time to find a job, but that doesn't mean you'll make enough money to support yourself. Programmers have it a bit rough right now, and it always hurts like hell to see your standard of living decline, but it's not that bad really. For so much of the country their standard of living starts a lot lower and it's still getting worse.

[api]

I really think it’s important to stress that it’s not all technology generally. It’s a specific thing: addictive content on mobile phones, especially when it also delivers toxic messaging (whether intentionally or not).

The really toxic thing here is the portable omnipresent virtual Skinner box.

Highlighting that specific thing will help make sure any regulation we do enact will be properly targeted. Kids learning to code or doing homework on a computer or even playing a few games is not the problem. “Social” media and hyper-addictive content is the problem. Tech that is designed to be addictive is the problem.

Addictive trash on PCs can be harmful too, but the form factor limits just how extreme and pervasive it can be.

I also think the mobile ecosystem is just culturally more oriented toward making things addictive. Mobile games, media, everything on the platform seems designed to suck people in and keep them staring. The PC ecosystem still seems to have some sense that computers should exist to help people or make them smarter, not addict them. It’s like mobile is run by the people who design slot machines.

[mordae]

I don't think this is about smartphones. This is about the online systems they interact with. We really should ban systematic user manipulation, advertising as a business and all unmoderated online spaces.

Most on-topic and/or small communities are fine. It's OK to create forum, but you need someone to step up and step in when necessary. Unmoderated FB-style exchanges and viral content with attached comment section need to go.

Well, that won't happen. Capitalists wouldn't allow it and regular people have this toxic environment internalized and normalized.

So I guess people will kill themselves. And a lot more will be permanently damaged.

It doesn't matter anyway. Soon there won't be any meaningful employment for kinds of people who fall prey to this due to ML replacing them, so this is just a drop in the ocean.

Root cause is the profit motive. Get rid of that and we can start having real discussions about what do we want.

[dTal]

>ban systematic user manipulation, advertising as a business and all unmoderated online spaces

One of these is not like the others.

Ban private communication because think of the children? Heard that one before. And "moderation" is "systematic user manipulation", so I guess just ban everything? "Moderation" is not some panacea, it just means some unspecified third party interfering. Moderated by whom, and by what critera? And those "FB-style exchanges" you hate are "moderated" by the FB algorithm.

[altair222]

This has to be one of the most boomer, gaslighting take i've ever seen. Yes, not the constant attack on LGBTQ rights, not the domestic abuses, not the shit education and academic culture, not blatant racism and neo-nazism but smartphones are what caused the mental health issues.