[yieldcrv]

the SEC’s logic is that if you decided that a wine bottle or baseball card you bought was to be sold at a profit in the future, then the winery and card issuer should have registered them as securities, and the seller should have been a registered broker dealer. and the boss should have provided a whole list of disclaimer to mitigate regulatory liability.

otherwise, the winery or baseball card issuer is engaged in fraud, and the seller is too, and the boss who recommended them is as well

this is what people find to be… at best … incomplete logic. there is a Howey test interpretation that would allow for this expansion, and crypto folks would gain power by having it applied congruently to those physical established artificial scarcity collections too, because Congress would reevaluate this inconvenience more holistically. There is another interpretation where the SEC makes no sense at all, and has to provide a clear exemption framework for crypto assets to navigate in order to be treated the same as wine bottles and baseball cards, ignoring the current parasocial relationship and reliance that crypto traders have with crypto project creators.

[rcme]

The SEC's logic is actually about how the items are marketed by the manufacturer. Baseball cards and wine aren't marketed by the manufacturer as items to buy as an investment.

[peyton]

Baseball cards are a bad example. The packs are lotteries with extra steps, and the manufacturers routinely face racketeering suits.

[yieldcrv]

and many crypto teams are meticulous about not doing that too

its why their discords say “no price discussion”, amongst many other communication nuances and project structuring to avoid securities issues. dont confuse celebrities and youtubers for the actual teams.

the only teams that have been sued by the SEC are ones that deviated in very predictable ways, there have been no surprises in the cases the SEC have brought, compared to the legal guidance that is given by law firms in the US

its just that the SEC then pretends as if it just hasnt gotten to other project issuers yet, and when not going after a specific project it just says “all cryptos are securities” because theyre going after an exchange, at the moment, and wont tell the exchange which ones

everything suggests the SEC’s logic is flimsy, or needs to apply even more broadly in a way that makes the SEC’s logic flimsy. The SEC is dragging this out because they understand the same thing, that all paths lead to their charter being modified even though they were just hoping that crypto went away.

[rcme]

This case is literally about celebrities being paid by the developers to market the product. Banning price discussions on Discord doesn’t absolve the developers of responsibility.

[yieldcrv]

and the celebrities simply need to disclose what their compensation is, when the asset involved is already determined to be a security. I would actually like to see that practice extended to consumer products that aren't securities.

unfortunately here, the SEC is still relying on an ambiguous interpretation of securities, unilaterally deeming something a security and simultaneously charging people that promoted it, who are relying on assurances and a parallel set of behaviors that something is not a security.

[cowl]

Hmm that's not the SEC's logic though. Winery or Baseball cards have thier own intrinsic value and while their value can be pumped by promoters it does not depend only on that and they are not sold as an investment. You may decide to buy them as an investement but they are not Created for that purpose. The same as I may invest in Property to profit in the future but the property is not a security becasue it has it's own intrinsic value and does not depend only on the promotion or market expectation or how the contructor company does afer I have bought the house.

There might be some parallels in Art and NFT but there the issue is completly different and is more of grey area of what you are actually bying than if it's an investment or not.

[yieldcrv]

intrinsic value isn't the qualifier for a distinction

and many crypto issuers focus on their nonspeculative utility

everything you described is exactly the problem. The SEC is saying that because any individual may have decided to buy them as an investment, then the SEC can ignore everything to the contrary. except the SEC hasnt actually ignored everything to the contrary because they havent charge crypto teams that focus exclusively on nonspeculative utility and other nuances. they charged teams that promised the price would go up. believe it or not, very many teams focus on the nonspeculative utility exclusively, the prevailing legal opinions from law firms in the US have had this advice to crypto teams for at least 6 years, and civil charges the SEC has brought have not undermined these assumptions. in any case, the SEC then turns around and says “theyre all securities” when speaking publicly or when charging an exchange. now we’ve come full circle between yours and mine perspective: either apply the same logic to “things with intrinsic value (that you respect)” or point out exactly which way for digital asset collections to be exempt as well.

[cowl]

Although technically you are right that the "intrinsic value" is not explicitly stated by SEC, the whole purpose of the Howey Test it to establish whether something has intrinsic Value. At least that's my interpretation of it. The main points of it are is it an investment and does this investment value depend only on the enterprise you investing on and promotion or does it have any other value that is independent of those factors (thus intrinsic value). Put it another way, if you investment is completely lost when the actor who put it in the market disappears, then it is a security.