[benatkin]

> It's designed especially for intellectually curious kids who love to read.

What does "intellectually curious" mean here exactly? The reasons people homeschool mostly seem to be about being (over)protective, which goes against it:

"Parents were asked which of the reasons they homeschooled was the most important reason. Figure 2 and table 4 show the most important reasons students were being homeschooled in 2003, as reported by parents of homeschooled students. Concern about the environment of other schools and to provide religious or moral instruction were the top two most important reasons cited. About a third of students had parents who cited concern about the environment of other schools as their most important reason for homeschooling (31 percent). Approximately another third of homeschooled students had parents who were homeschooling primarily to provide religious or moral instruction (30 percent). Sixteen percent of homeschooled students had parents whose primary reason for homeschooling was dissatisfaction with the academic instruction available at other schools, making this the third most common primary reason for homeschooling."

https://nces.ed.gov/pubs2006/homeschool/parentsreasons.asp

It would be great if you could help some to get some what they're missing from being shielded from other schools, but to make it sound like homeschooling is more efficient and that all the time saved enables more learning does not reflect the typical homeschool experience.

Also some do online charter school where a company gets thousands of dollars a year per student to give people lousy content (when there's great free content on Khan Academy) and no social connection. It seems pretty bleak. https://www.reddit.com/r/education/comments/3r4w96/study_on_...

[lolinder]

This feels less like an sincere question for OP than it does an uninformed attack on homeschooling in general. You start with a phrase OP used to describe their target audience, imply that there is no such homeschool family, and then tangent off into unrelated attacks that show a strong lack of nuance.

Yes, there are families that homeschool for the wrong reasons. But there are plenty of others (as your own cited stats show) who choose to homeschool because the public education system kinda sucks. Those families (my own included) are very conscientious about addressing the known weaknesses of homeschooling through co-ops and other tools.

[benatkin]

> uninformed attack on homeschooling in general

You can probably tell I have direct experience with it, yet you call me "uninformed". It's a pretty common tactic when defending a fringe group.

However, I brought information into it. There's no mention in your comment about the reference I provided. Gee I wonder why.

[lolinder]

I did reference your data, I just don't find it to mean what you think it means. It shows that plenty of people (68%) choose to homeschool at least in part because of "dissatisfaction with academic instruction at other schools". That those people are also worried about peer pressure doesn't make them intellectually incurious.

For a bit more nuance, see this report [0]:

> This exploratory study examines the academic outcomes of homeschooled students who enter a medium size doctoral institution located in the Midwest. Descriptive analysis reveals homeschool students possess higher ACT scores, grade point averages (GPAs) and graduation rates when compared to traditionally-educated students. In addition, multiple regression analysis results reveal that students who are homeschooled earn higher first-year and fourth-year GPAs when controlling for demographic, pre-college, engagement, and first-term academic factors.

And this one [1]:

> Consistent with the findings on socialization of homeschooling youngsters and the social and civic engagement of their parents (Lines 2000a), available research finds that homeschooled adults also participate in community-based activities at rates much higher than those found in the general population (Ray 2005). Two studies in particular open a window on this issue. In the mid-1990s, Knowles and Muchmore (1995) reported that homeschooled adults were not disengaged socially or civically. In a comprehensive analysis of the issue a decade later, Ray (2004a) documented that homeschooled adults were indeed heavily involved in community life at the local and national levels and were more civically involved than the general population of adults. He found that compared to public school graduates, homeschooled adults were more likely to (1) vote; (2) be involved in ongoing community service; (3) be part of an organization; (4) write, telephone, or sign petitions; and (5) participate in a protest or boycott.

I'm not cherry-picking here, I'm literally just going down the list of results for this Google Scholar search [3].

[0] https://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/EJ893891.pdf

[1] https://www.educacaodomiciliar.fe.unicamp.br/sites/www.educa...

[3]. https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C45&q=col...

[benatkin]

Hmm, so you did mention my data, but didn't acknowledge that I must at least be somewhat informed.

I don't think fringe is a pejorative.

---

Yes, finding issue with the schools is part of the response. However, complaining about the schools is not a great victory for those arguing for homeschooling. They would have to provide a superior alternative. And there isn't overwhelming evidence that either is better, because there are so many variables. And a good study would try to control for them, so it is good that the one you mentioned did.

Everybody knows schools have problems and many try to solve them or have their children go to other schools.

When parents say their kid can't possibly go to any school that has other kids in it, though in some cases, it is a bit like Munchausen's syndrome where the parent invents a problem wants to step in and be the hero. And that is difficult for a lot of children to handle.

[lolinder]

To the extent that your original comment related to OP's post at all, you were insinuating that intellectually curious homeschoolers don't exist. Your own data disproves that, as does the data I provided in my follow-up.

I'm sorry that you had the displeasure of interacting with badly-homeschooled people. I've had the same displeasure of interacting with badly-public-schooled people, so I sympathize. If I were you, though, I would look at the statistical outcomes before making sweeping generalizations about an entire class of family.

[benatkin]

> To the extent that your original comment related to OP's post at all, you were insinuating that intellectually curious homeschoolers don't exist. Your own data disproves that, as does the data I provided in my follow-up.

No I wasn't insinuating that intellectually curious homeschoolers don't exist.

I suggested that those in it for that reason aren't the most common and wondered where OP found people who were homeschooling out of lifestyle design and not protectiveness. Protectiveness is the most common reason. They didn't have an answer for me apparently, but I was genuinely hoping for one. I in fact know some homeschool for lifestyle design. I'm very curious about those who traveled or helped their children get their 10,000 hours in something like writing or playing a musical instrument (hell, even programming).

I'm pretty sure mine was among the better homeschooled people, at least out of those homeschooled out of protectiveness (as the original aim, the original reason for homeschooling often gets lost in the noise). The truth is that there is something missing even with the best homeschooled people.

[cjensen]

Don't dismiss too easily the real needs to homeschool for some people.

I have a friend whose child had some learning disability. The school district's "solution" was to put them in the disabled class with an overwhelmed teacher and call it a day. Homeschooling allowed the parent to ensure their child had a full education at a pace the child could handle.

Another friend had a gifted child who was pretty bored. Homeschooling let the child plow through the material at a more challenging pace and then continue to challenge themselves with material no high school would have taught.

Homeschooling is an alternative that some people pretty much have to take for their children's sake. Homeschooling is harder for the parents than regular schooling and is not a decision taken lightly.

[all2]

> and no social connection

I've seen great benefits come out of home schooling co-ops. You get the ability to have your child learn at their pace and study subjects they find interesting (to a certain extent, obviously), the added benefit of a little less labor on the part of individual parents, and a social group of kiddos that are following a similar path.

[benatkin]

Good. I've seen parents join one so they would feel good about their choice to homeschool and quit it after a year but continue homeschooling without that extra social interaction and still feel good about it.

[myself248]

"Mostly" is not everyone, and frankly I tend to forget the religious weirdos even exist. All the homeschooling families I knew were doing it because the local schools sucked; even those with "gifted and talented" programs couldn't keep up.

If this scratches an itch for some homeschoolers, it's valid and useful. There will always be others for whom it is not interesting, but so what?

[all2]

> religious weirdos

I fall into that category in that I find the public education system extremely lacking in terms of (and especially) moral development. I don't appreciate the characterization of "weirdo", though you are welcome to it.

Just know that the majority of the people in the space you aspire to serve are fundamental Christians of various stripes and colors and you will lose that segment of business very quickly if you continue to demean them publicly.

[benatkin]

I didn't say anything negative at all about religious schools! Just concern about parents deciding to go it alone! Like, there is no scheduled interaction with other people!

I can already hear the indignant "none of your business". I'm just trying to help people avoid making a mistake.

Sadly there are a lot of great, social, religious schools, and many of the evangelical Christians (not as varied as you suggest, but mostly being strikingly similar*) are more likely to throw out the social component of school and homeschool them or put them in a tiny school that not only lacks the resources but also often lacks the sense of responsibility most parents have.

* FWIW they're among the most vulnerable to televangelists and megachurches

[all2]

Oh, I didn't mean my (GP) statements to apply to what you said (GGP). I apologize if I came across that way.

I agree with you, raising children is harrowing, and doing it well is difficult. Somewhere else in this thread I mentioned home schooling co-ops as a way to spread the burden. There's a lot of benefit to having community, which is something that evangelicals often lack.

[benatkin]

Yeah they should be careful not to neglect having community. Like, at least every semester, think about whether there is enough community. And don't use something they did in a past semester as an excuse for lacking community in the current semester.

[quacked]

I think the guy you're responding to isn't the one developing the system.

[all2]

Oh, oops. He's not. @jkurnia is the creator of the linked site. Thank you for pointing this out.

[4dayworkweek4u]

>though you are welcome to it.

No. They are not! We're offended and will not tolerate hate speech.

# Learn intolerance from the left (until we can peacefully separate)

[benatkin]

That's why I included the link. I didn't say that most of them were being protective for religious reasons. Just that they made a decision out of a desire to be protective. That's both of the first two categories (31% and 30%) and I'm sure some of the remainder. Of course some parents are overprotective. And I get that about the local schools sucking but who's providing a superior alternative and are you sure they are?

I'll take your word for it on the homeschooling families you knew. I knew plenty myself and saw the opposite.