[orange8]

> Okay, let me explain something to you, as a person who has been in this biz for 23 years.

Since you've brought up your experience, what exactly does "in this biz" mean exactly? What was your job title 20 years ago? 15 years ago? 10 years ago? 5 years ago? Now? If you've really been in the industry that long, you should have noticed that the job titles also evolve. Back when all the complexity was in the server, and JS was just a baby toy language and not the beast its evolved into today, the job titles were very different than they are now.

> What you're talking about id client-side vs. server-side which doesn't have a 1-to-1 correspondence with frontend vs. backend.

Just google "front-end" dev, or even use wikipedia [1]. The client-server architecture even pre-dates the web, but when it comes to web developement, the front end is css, html and js. Nothing more, nothing less. If you do not agree, then go edit that wikipedia page.

> Frontend has always been about something user-facing. Backend has always been about something that is non-user-facing.

What do you mean by "user facing"? Can a user view the source code of a PHP generated page? How is PHP user facing? Can you give me an example of a web tech that is "non-user-facing"?

> Client-side dev has hijacked the term frontend to describe purely client-side development. Even though with the exception of direct DOM manipulation there are very few conceptual differences between generating UI on the client and generating the UI via PHP/RoR.

The term client-side dev is never used in the industry. Never. What we use is front-end developer. Go to any job ad website[2] and look for the term "client side dev", you wont find it. What you will find is "front-end dev". Then look through all the front-end dev job postings, and show me one, even one that lists PHP, RoR or Golang as a job requirement. Here are some front-end roles [3][4]. Notice how none of them mention PHP, Golang or RoR? Then here are some back-end roles [5][6], notice how there is no mention of js, html or css?

Case closed. Have a nice day.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Front-end_web_development

[2] https://www.ycombinator.com/jobs

[3] https://www.ycombinator.com/companies/golinks/jobs/k3k6PSz-f...

[4] https://www.ycombinator.com/companies/tractian/jobs/P6ri7Wt-...

[5] https://www.ycombinator.com/companies/svix/jobs/7DMKXxB-rust...

[6] https://www.ycombinator.com/companies/safebeat/jobs/2mJ95eL-...

[illiarian]

> What do you mean by "user facing"? Can a user view the source code of a PHP generated page? How is PHP user facing?

It literally produces the website that the user is looking at.

Unlike, say, a microservice that retrieves some data.

> The term client-side dev is never used in the industry. Never.

If you paid attention to what I write you could've seen this: "Client-side dev has hijacked the term frontend to describe purely client-side development. ".

This is what happened, and you are a great example of this.

Two technologies produce user-facing UIs and sites by stringing together data from different services and presenting that to the user.

"OMG PHP runs in the server this is backend unlike this JS code that literally does the same"

[orange8]

> It literally produces the website that the user is looking at.

Your definition is meaningless because EVERYTHING in the pipeline literally produces everything "you are looking at" from the database to the css.

> Unlike, say, a micro-service that retrieves some data.

That data still produces part of "what you are looking at". What a useless phrase. Stick to industry definitions, yours do not make sense. And there is no language called "micro-service". I asked you to name the so called "non-user-facing" part of the web development stack.

> If you paid attention to what I write you could've seen this: "Client-side dev has hijacked the term frontend to describe purely client-side development. ".

So, old man yells at the cloud and uses his own idiosyncratic terms. What matters is not who hijacked what. What matters is that the industry has settled on the term "front-end developer". Complain as much as you want, but realize that train left the station. Go ahead and use your own terms that no one understands because "my 23 years experience", but that's exactly how people fall out of touch. And then when you say thinks like "PHP is front-end dev" people will immediately dismiss your knowledge, so you have to keep reminding them "but look.. my experience!" The term is "front-end dev", deal with it.

> "OMG PHP runs in the server this is backend unlike this JS code that literally does the same"

Old man yells at a language that can be used both in the cloud and browser.

When JS is executed in the server (e.g. Nodejs) is it part of the back-end stack. When it is executed by the browser, it is part of the front-end stack. When it executes on both, it is full-stack. Kapish?