[orange8]

It is not magic, it is back-end development. Calling it magic is like calling server-less architecture magic.

Sit down and carefully consider what is the difference between front-end and back-end development, and why that distinction exists in the first place.

[illiarian]

What he is doing was literally called doing frontend until SPAs came along.

PHP and RoR was frontend.

[orange8]

In your own words, please define what "front-end development" means to you when it comes to web development.

[illiarian]

Anything that creates something directly user-facing on the web.

With the rise of SPAs I've seen "traditional frontend" rebranded as "backend of the frontend" which is an awkward term to say the least.

[orange8]

Okay. I'll explain it to you. It basically comes down to a server-client architecture. The server (db, server side code) is the backend, that the user never gets to see. The client (basically the browser - js, html and css) is what the user get's to see, not just through the interface, but by selecting "view source".

So PHP and Rails are back-end languages. You never get to see the code and logic that generated the page because it is "at the back". Golang, which the poster mentioned, is also a back-end language. So if the core of your apps logic is at the back-end (server), what you are practicing is back-end dev. If the core is in the front (e.g. SPAs) then it's front-end dev. Sometimes the complexity can be split 50-50 between the back and front. But if your web-application just uses html, css and a sprinkling of JS, then it is back-end driven. Another category is a website, which does not really have any complexity whether at the back or front.

So to correct your statement, PHP and RoR have never, at any point in time been considered front-end tech. If it is not html, css and js (including complile to js languages like ts), then it is not front-end dev.

[sethammons]

I'm not sure how long you've been in the industry. But you sound like it is less than maybe 10 years. Before react and such, you were considered a frontend developer when you delivered your javascript + html + css from any backend, though typically it would be served by php, RoR, or, more limitedly, by some python. Backend developers didn't touch html or css and couldn't be bothered to to think about js. The balance between full stack, backend, and frontend teetered on if you we're concerned with pixel alignment and UI things vs data storage, manipulation, and retrieval.

Again, back in the day, you wouldn't call yourself a backend dev if you did anything meaningful with html UI. You would still call yourself frontend even though you had to work through templating in a given backend language.

Source: I've been doing this for a couple of decades.

[orange8]

> I'm not sure how long you've been in the industry. But you sound like it is less than maybe 10 years.

Okay. No offence, but so do you.

> Before react and such, you were considered a frontend developer when you delivered your javascript + html + css from any backend, though typically it would be served by php, RoR, or, more limitedly, by some python.

Not really. Back in the day, before the great divide [1], the terms we used were "Web Designer" and "Web Developer". We also had "Flash Developer" but I digress. A web designer was expected to know all the front-end stuff including JS, since the front-end was not that complex. Almost all complexity was at the back-end, and that was the job of a web developer. The term "front-end web developer" simply did not exist in 2003. There was nothing to "develop" in the front end, since all complexity was on the back. Yes, there were some exceptions, but in those days, PHP was king. React is current king, and it's funny how it gets the same hate PHP got back in the day. Some people just like to tear down and burn whatever is at the top. Reacts successor will get the same hate. Thats how you know who the king is.

> Again, back in the day, you wouldn't call yourself a backend dev if you did anything meaningful with html UI. You would still call yourself frontend even though you had to work through templating in a given backend language.

Wrong. Why would someone working on PHP and MySQL call themselves frontend? So who were the backends back then? Strange thing to call yourself "front", when no one called themselves "back", don't your think? Like I said, the terms back then were web developer and web designer.

> Source: I've been doing this for a couple of decades.

Source: So have I.

[1] https://css-tricks.com/the-great-divide/

[illiarian]

> Okay. I'll explain it to you.

> PHP and RoR have never, at any point in time been considered front-end tech.

Okay, let me explain something to you, as a person who has been in this biz for 23 years.

What you're talking about is client-side vs. server-side which doesn't have a 1-to-1 correspondence with frontend vs. backend.

Frontend has always been about something user-facing. Backend has always been about something that is non-user-facing.

Client-side dev has hijacked the term frontend to describe purely client-side development. Even though with the exception of direct DOM manipulation there are very few conceptual differences between generating UI on the client and generating the UI via PHP/RoR.

[orange8]

> Okay, let me explain something to you, as a person who has been in this biz for 23 years.

Since you've brought up your experience, what exactly does "in this biz" mean exactly? What was your job title 20 years ago? 15 years ago? 10 years ago? 5 years ago? Now? If you've really been in the industry that long, you should have noticed that the job titles also evolve. Back when all the complexity was in the server, and JS was just a baby toy language and not the beast its evolved into today, the job titles were very different than they are now.

> What you're talking about id client-side vs. server-side which doesn't have a 1-to-1 correspondence with frontend vs. backend.

Just google "front-end" dev, or even use wikipedia [1]. The client-server architecture even pre-dates the web, but when it comes to web developement, the front end is css, html and js. Nothing more, nothing less. If you do not agree, then go edit that wikipedia page.

> Frontend has always been about something user-facing. Backend has always been about something that is non-user-facing.

What do you mean by "user facing"? Can a user view the source code of a PHP generated page? How is PHP user facing? Can you give me an example of a web tech that is "non-user-facing"?

> Client-side dev has hijacked the term frontend to describe purely client-side development. Even though with the exception of direct DOM manipulation there are very few conceptual differences between generating UI on the client and generating the UI via PHP/RoR.

The term client-side dev is never used in the industry. Never. What we use is front-end developer. Go to any job ad website[2] and look for the term "client side dev", you wont find it. What you will find is "front-end dev". Then look through all the front-end dev job postings, and show me one, even one that lists PHP, RoR or Golang as a job requirement. Here are some front-end roles [3][4]. Notice how none of them mention PHP, Golang or RoR? Then here are some back-end roles [5][6], notice how there is no mention of js, html or css?

Case closed. Have a nice day.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Front-end_web_development

[2] https://www.ycombinator.com/jobs

[3] https://www.ycombinator.com/companies/golinks/jobs/k3k6PSz-f...

[4] https://www.ycombinator.com/companies/tractian/jobs/P6ri7Wt-...

[5] https://www.ycombinator.com/companies/svix/jobs/7DMKXxB-rust...

[6] https://www.ycombinator.com/companies/safebeat/jobs/2mJ95eL-...

[creamyhorror]

It's simple enough: before the rise of front-end frameworks in the 2010s, web developers were indeed more of a single group ("full stack"). But even before the rise of Angular in 2011/12ish, there was already starting to be a specialisation in front-end vs back-end; some devs, I remember, worked almost wholly on the JS UIs of more front-end-heavy websites (they may have been more of web designers previously). Others concerned themselves more with the backend, databases, services, etc. As frontend technologies grew more complex (and mobile became of primary importance), the division grew.

Before Angular and co., "full stack" encompassed using HTML, CSS, and JS. What it can be fairly said to mean nowadays is debatable, but 10+ years ago, doing Rails with a bit of JS would definitely have counted.

[orange8]

> It's simple enough: before the rise of front-end frameworks in the 2010s, web developers were indeed more of a single group ("full stack").

They did not call themselves "full-stack" though, did they?

[orange8]

LOL! Looks like some people are silently getting butt-hurt over a simple challenge asking them to differentiate between front-end and back-end dev. If front-end dev is not your cup of tea, that's ok. Just be honest with yourself about it. Using only html, css and a sprinkling of js is not front-end dev, it is web-design.