[apodolny]

"I must study politics and war that my sons may have liberty to study mathematics and philosophy. My sons ought to study mathematics and philosophy, geography, natural history, naval architecture, navigation, commerce and agriculture in order to give their children a right to study painting, poetry, music, architecture, statuary, tapestry, and porcelain." - John Adams[1]

[1] https://www.masshist.org/digitaladams/archive/doc?id=L178005...

[_xnmw]

I live in Ukraine and I don't agree with this at all. The arts are very much alive during war. The opera houses and theatres are full, songs and art are flourishing, and if anything, the artistic instinct has only been further inspired. "painting, poetry, and music" have gone nowhere even as we fight for our basic survival.

[lolinder]

That's wonderful, and I'm glad to hear it!

I wouldn't interpret Adams as saying that the humanities have no value until after the war is over and the nation established—I think he's saying that he doesn't have as much time to focus on them as he would like to have, and he hopes that future generations will have that time.

At the beginning of the letter he says this:

> Since my Arrival this time I have driven about Paris, more than I did before. The rural Scenes around this Town are charming. The public Walks, Gardens, &c. are extreamly beautifull. The Gardens of the Palais Royal, the Gardens of the Tuilleries, are very fine. The Place de Louis 15, the Place Vendome or Place de Louis 14, the Place victoire, the Place royal, are fine Squares, ornamented with very magnificent statues. I wish I had time to describe these objects to you in a manner, that I should have done, 25 Years ago, but my Head is too full of Schemes and my Heart of Anxiety to use Expressions borrowed from you know whom.

Note that he does say he took time to view and appreciate the things he found in Paris—what he laments is that he does not have the mental focus to study and describe them in detail to his wife.

[philwelch]

There’s also a historical irony in that within a decade, that beautiful, cultured France tore itself apart in a bloody revolution and ultimately engaged in an ambitious war to conquer all of Europe. Even some people there were studying war, it turns out, and they were the ones who ended up running things.

[nicwolff]

Well, he said it was appropriate to study only politics and war "in a young Country, as yet simple and not far advanced in Luxury", which hardly describes Ukraine!

[philwelch]

Ukraine became independent in 1991 and has a per capita GDP PPP of less than $15,000 as of 2021 compared to over $57,000 in Germany and over $69,000 in USA, so it is a young country with seemingly little ability to afford material luxury.

[rektide]

You both seem to agree that art & culture is of enormous value. And I hope like Adams we agree that it would be ideal if we could leave war & defense much behind us, wish that it was not necessary. You seem well aligned with Adams to me.

I do think there's an interesting level, where when it's suddenly difficult to have art & culture, we value it higher, it's need is more apparent.

I do worry that the path of alienation & isolation capitalism has walked the world down has distanced us from meaning in such a way that art & culture no longer have the capacity to stand as (especially valued/positive) signifiers as much, that art & culture is both under supply side risk from a more brutal & unrelenting mechanization that makes art less accessible to make (few can afford the luxury of being an artist/cultural producer), while also slamming many arts (especially non bougouise) from the demand side - both for the same economic there-is-no-surplus-for-labor/no one-can-afford art problem, but also in the sense that we're so alienated, that we dont resonate positively or cherish art- we dislike so much of the state-of-ourselves, are so roundly enmiserated by the mainstream we are suffused in, that art/culture dont have the essential power it ought have.

We (everyone other tham Ukraine presently) forget what culture we had. Squid Games anti-culture is what we're left with.

[lisper]

> The opera houses and theatres are full

That is amazing.

[kevinventullo]

In my opinion, some of the most meaningful art has war as the subject.

[watwut]

Nothing like a reality to destroy popular quote.

[proser]

I don't think the radically different contexts of a burgeoning nation in the 18th century and a highly developed nation in the 21st "destroys" this quote.

[watwut]

The experience of "actually in times of war people need and use art" does it.

Quote was made by diplomat and revolutionary. It expresses his personal values and needs rather then universal needs in bad times.

[lolinder]

This is a fascinating quote in part because you can see John Adams's thought process in the bits that are scratched out. He starts by saying that he needs to study politics and war so that his sons can study "painting and poetry", but then he scratches that out and replaces it with "mathematics and philosophy". The next sentence suggests that he realized while writing that it would take more than one generation to get to the leisure state he desires—that once his generation has won the war, his children will need to establish the nation, and only then will his grandchildren have enough leisure time to study the humanities.

[nicwolff]

And it seems he changed "My sons ought to study Mathematicks and Philosophy, Geography, natural History, Naval Architecture, navigation, Commerce and Agriculture, in order to give theirs a right to study Painting, Poetry, Musick, Architecture, Statuary, Tapestry and Porcelaine." to "in order to give their Children a right" to include women in that third generation.

[lolinder]

Ah! I was wondering what that change signified. I assumed it was just a corrected mistake, but you're right, it changes the gender of the third generation. Very interesting.

[nicwolff]

I think I can picture him, writing "...give their sons a right to study Painting, Poetry, Musick, Architecture, Statuary,... hmm, Tapestry... and Porcelaine? Let's make it 'children'!" ツ

[Apocryphon]

Must be ol' Abby's influence.

[awb]

Reading between the lines I’m sure he meant that they could study those arts in addition to those fundamental studies listed prior.

A nation devoted to poetry and porcelain isn’t sustainable.

And certainly he must have been aware of how cyclical history is versus a linear march towards artistic pursuits. The US since it’s inception has been involved in a significant war in nearly every decade. Post-Vietnam through the 1st Iraq war was one of the rare periods where a US citizen could have been of military age without a major hot war. Although the Cold War certainly brought it’s own level of fear.

[anonymouskimmer]

Switzerland has been war free in 171 of the last 176 years. It can be done, just not if you plan on being a major power.

[awb]

Geography helps too. But they have an army and mandated military service, so regarding the Adam’s quote they still practice those 1st level topics.

Costa Rica is the largest country I know of that has no military.

[red-iron-pine]

And friendly neighbors. France, Germany, Italy, and others have been willing to play ball. Geography simply changes the equation; fruit ain't worth the squeeze.

[dmos62]

I'd add that if any of those generations fails, the next will have to study politics and war again.

[awb]

Even if it succeeds they have to study it.

There are very few examples of countries that have survived without a military.

[bryanrasmussen]

I always interpreted it as needing to become richer in following generations until reaching a generation composed of the idle rich able to live comfortably on their inheritance and thus able to study those things unlikely to be remunerative.