[_xnmw]

I live in Ukraine and I don't agree with this at all. The arts are very much alive during war. The opera houses and theatres are full, songs and art are flourishing, and if anything, the artistic instinct has only been further inspired. "painting, poetry, and music" have gone nowhere even as we fight for our basic survival.

[lolinder]

That's wonderful, and I'm glad to hear it!

I wouldn't interpret Adams as saying that the humanities have no value until after the war is over and the nation established—I think he's saying that he doesn't have as much time to focus on them as he would like to have, and he hopes that future generations will have that time.

At the beginning of the letter he says this:

> Since my Arrival this time I have driven about Paris, more than I did before. The rural Scenes around this Town are charming. The public Walks, Gardens, &c. are extreamly beautifull. The Gardens of the Palais Royal, the Gardens of the Tuilleries, are very fine. The Place de Louis 15, the Place Vendome or Place de Louis 14, the Place victoire, the Place royal, are fine Squares, ornamented with very magnificent statues. I wish I had time to describe these objects to you in a manner, that I should have done, 25 Years ago, but my Head is too full of Schemes and my Heart of Anxiety to use Expressions borrowed from you know whom.

Note that he does say he took time to view and appreciate the things he found in Paris—what he laments is that he does not have the mental focus to study and describe them in detail to his wife.

[philwelch]

There’s also a historical irony in that within a decade, that beautiful, cultured France tore itself apart in a bloody revolution and ultimately engaged in an ambitious war to conquer all of Europe. Even some people there were studying war, it turns out, and they were the ones who ended up running things.

[nicwolff]

Well, he said it was appropriate to study only politics and war "in a young Country, as yet simple and not far advanced in Luxury", which hardly describes Ukraine!

[philwelch]

Ukraine became independent in 1991 and has a per capita GDP PPP of less than $15,000 as of 2021 compared to over $57,000 in Germany and over $69,000 in USA, so it is a young country with seemingly little ability to afford material luxury.

[rektide]

You both seem to agree that art & culture is of enormous value. And I hope like Adams we agree that it would be ideal if we could leave war & defense much behind us, wish that it was not necessary. You seem well aligned with Adams to me.

I do think there's an interesting level, where when it's suddenly difficult to have art & culture, we value it higher, it's need is more apparent.

I do worry that the path of alienation & isolation capitalism has walked the world down has distanced us from meaning in such a way that art & culture no longer have the capacity to stand as (especially valued/positive) signifiers as much, that art & culture is both under supply side risk from a more brutal & unrelenting mechanization that makes art less accessible to make (few can afford the luxury of being an artist/cultural producer), while also slamming many arts (especially non bougouise) from the demand side - both for the same economic there-is-no-surplus-for-labor/no one-can-afford art problem, but also in the sense that we're so alienated, that we dont resonate positively or cherish art- we dislike so much of the state-of-ourselves, are so roundly enmiserated by the mainstream we are suffused in, that art/culture dont have the essential power it ought have.

We (everyone other tham Ukraine presently) forget what culture we had. Squid Games anti-culture is what we're left with.

[lisper]

> The opera houses and theatres are full

That is amazing.

[kevinventullo]

In my opinion, some of the most meaningful art has war as the subject.

[watwut]

Nothing like a reality to destroy popular quote.

[proser]

I don't think the radically different contexts of a burgeoning nation in the 18th century and a highly developed nation in the 21st "destroys" this quote.

[watwut]

The experience of "actually in times of war people need and use art" does it.

Quote was made by diplomat and revolutionary. It expresses his personal values and needs rather then universal needs in bad times.