[4gotunameagain]

so.. you are against peaceful reconciliation, because what you describe is unrealistic.

would a person that is capable of starting a war ever accept those terms ?

especially since pulling back now puts them in a worse state than before having invaded, with NATO expansion, losses etc

[mindslight]

> especially since pulling back now puts them in a worse state than before having invaded, with NATO expansion, losses etc

Why would Russia not end up in a worse state after launching an ill-advised war of aggression? Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

[reducesuffering]

Please bargain with the home invader that says your home is there's now otherwise you're dead. And that's final, no police after the fact. Maybe you can try to convince them you two can split it and live happily ever after inside?

[lispm]

> you are against peaceful reconciliation, because what you describe is unrealistic

what you describe is unrealistic. Russia keeps killing people and handing over the Ukraine to them is no option.

[roundandround]

> Russia keeps killing people and handing over the Ukraine to them is no option.

And who suggested that? The question is whether Russia will violate 80 years of superpower precedent by acting with integrity and admitting defeat and willingness to face externally determined consequences or if something else will happen.

[clouddrover]

> The question is whether Russia will violate 80 years of superpower precedent

No need to ask that question. Putin has made Russia weaker, poorer, and a pariah with fewer friends:

https://fortune.com/2023/02/20/russia-economy-self-immolated...

Russia has become a lesser state run by a sad little man. If Russia wants to rebuild itself then its best option is to remove Putin and withdraw entirely from Ukraine.

[roundandround]

> Russia gets out and stays out of Ukraine, Russia extradites those Russians who have committed war crimes, and Russia pays reparations for the rebuilding of Ukraine.

> If Russia wants to rebuild itself then its best option is to remove Putin and withdraw entirely from Ukraine

The second option doesn't seem to require Russia to do the first. Nor does it really require Russia to remove Putin to get peace. Putin withdrawing is no doubt more realistic if China helps put lipstick on the pig with an obfuscated treaty on future alliances that can be called a victory.

[lispm]

Other than having nukes, Russia is no superpower. Nukes are useless in this war.

[clouddrover]

> pulling back now puts them in a worse state than before having invaded, with NATO expansion, losses etc

Putin created his own problems and he has made Russia weaker. It's well past time for him to find the honesty to admit it.

Putin made his choices. He gets to live them.