[GrigoriyMikh]

Why October revolution was a catastrophe? Or more precisely, from whose perspective?

Tsarists Russia was agrarian state with minimal human rights for common folk. And then take a look what common people had after Stalin's era. Almost everyone had a housing/education. No risks of becoming homeless/unemployed. And that after a multiple catastrophes that USSR indured because of external factors(famines and wars).

Modern Russia is wholey based on Soviet achievements. And it's people are still holding up, provided with food and shelter, despite actions of it's rulers and oligarchy. Indeed, what a catastrophe was an October revolution.

[genman]

Because after Tsar there was a very good change for Russia to become a normal country with real human rights and freedoms https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Provisional_Government

Bolsheviks destroyed this, they also destroyed the change for Ukraine and Belarus and made all of it a murderous genocidal shit hole that lasted well until the death of Stalin during what they invaded and murdered even more nations.

No risk of unemployment? Just the great opportunity being forced to work without pay in the collective farm - from serfdom into slavery, have Russians ever been free? Getting executed for protection of your rights? Or at best getting long imprisonment? What you are doing here is glorification of regime responsible for large scale crimes against humanity. It is like glorifying Nazis because they built the autobahn. Well done!

Yes, modern Russia, is based on this past, clearly, but not in the good way.

[GrigoriyMikh]

What was "good change for Russia"?

Provisional government had a lot of decisions or rather "undecisions", for example regarding land policy. For which there was a huge support from peasantry. Then it's questionable position on war.

Provisional government was what it is -- provisional. There were a lot of disagreements between majority of people and old elites. At the end, old elites lost.

And what " murderous genocidal shit" are you talking about? I will not argue about excesses in repressions, as they clearly existed. But can we call them genocidal? Then, if you talk about Holodomor -- it's very controversial topic, surrounded by Western propaganda. You can easily find and read Stalin letters to Kaganovich, where you see that they actually tried to solve the problem of supplies but due to poor government organization failed to do so. So in no way it was "murderous genocidal shit", but just a system failure which lead to catastrophe.

[genman]

You perhaps would like to investigate the Red terror and Stalin mass repressions, especially against the nations that were attacked and occupied and then forcefully incorporated into Soviet Union.

Holodomor is a different case that stands out on its own as a clear case of targeted starvation. It was created by planned over collection of grain where no compromise was allowed despite clear signs of very dangerous situation.

I really don't know to what Putinist Stalin white washing propaganda you are referring to, but events of the genocide are very well documented. You can study this summary for example https://www.sciencespo.fr/mass-violence-war-massacre-resista...

There was no failure. It was a planned way to crush Ukrainians.

[GrigoriyMikh]

Regarding Holodomor -- i'm still not convinced 100% that it was targeted starvation. Again, referring you to Stalin's letters:

https://education.holodomor.ca/teaching-materials/primary-do...

[genman]

Thank you, but this is actually discussed in the summary that I provided and they come to very different conclusion. The main issue for Stalin was resistance of Ukrainians - they refused to starve to death.

[genman]

The goal of the provisional government was to lead Russia to become a democratic and free country, not a dictatorship of genocidal madmen. The end goal of it was a fully legitimate government and this was destroyed by bolsheviks who took over the control and murdered everybody who opposed them and was not able to escape.

[GrigoriyMikh]

When you talking about "destroyed by bolsheviks" -- it was tens of thousands of people who participated in revolution directly. There obviously were reasons why so much people decided to go to such measures to overthrow the government.

Specifically, because provisional government couldn't get to a peaceful consensus that would satisfied both sides. Old elites didn't want to give they privileges away. So people took it. Good lesson to modern elites.

[genman]

Bolsheviks were great manipulators of people.They promised what people wanted to ear, something they never planned to keep, their actual goals were very different. When they solidified their power, they eliminated the other political actors who helped them. They deceived people to participate.

But you are right, in the end the opposition to Bolsheviks failed because the only serious opposition to them was tsarist who could not provide any new ideas. Bolsheviks killed (and very literally) any change of real opposition to them. When people realized the actual situation then it was already too late.

[braymundo]

It seems someone has been re-educated in a gulag.

[genman]

It's just common Russian everyday propaganda since Putin usurped the power in Russia. Has been going on since 2000. Now we see to where it got them.

[GrigoriyMikh]

Do you really think that current Russian Oligarchy government for some reason creates Communist propaganda in Russia? Wouldn't it be against their interest?

[genman]

Communist? No, just the plain old Russian imperialist and chauvinist propaganda like it always has been. Soviet Union was just a new skin for the same old. The collapse of it gave Russians an unique change to raise above it but it didn't happen. Russians got really unlucky with Putin. He gave nothing and took everything.

You likely want to disagree but it is true - Putin came to power just after Yeltsin era hard and difficult reforms were done and oil prices, that were for a decade record low, skyrocketed. And Russian economy is nothing more than oil, and then some more oil and gas.

[GrigoriyMikh]

I'm not sure what should i want to disagree about here. Putin is not a good guy in my opinion, as is Yeltsin. I don't think that natural resources, such as oil, should be privatized. To be honest, i think it shouldn't be nationalized either, as i'm against idea of economically autonomous nations. The globalization is the only way for humanity to survive(i believe).

And yes, i realize that it sounds utopic.

[genman]

I support free world. There was a hope that globalization, the free trade, will lead us toward this but I think we have failed in part. It gave bad actors like China and Russia resources to act against the idea of free world.

I think that the model of European Union is still promising. It could even sustain more national independence. Nothing would break fundamentally when for example Catalonia became independent (from Spain) within European Union - there will be still free trade, there will be still freedom of movement.

[raspberry1337]

honestly, I am tired of arguing with socialists/stalinists. Fuck you and go back to hell.