[jpeterson]

"There’s a lot of collaboration and spontaneous connection that happens in hallways and kitchenettes."

I've seen this idea repeated many times, but in over 20 years in the tech industry, I've never once seen a meaningful collaboration spring up in a kitchenette or hallway. It's invariably "how was your weekend?" fare. Don't get me wrong, there's value in connecting that way, but it's never the sort of thing that directly leads to any of the productivity gain that the anti-remote crowd would like you to believe.

[atsuzaki]

I scored most (if not all) of my career-defining opportunities from hallway convos after a meeting, or chatting while waiting for coffee to brew, so YMMV.

[kelnos]

So we should require that everyone be in an office, so that people like you can get their career-defining opportunities? Maybe many of us would be fine making that trade-off: fewer opportunities for career-defining opportunities in exchange for the elimination of a commute, more-comfortable working arrangements, and a much more flexible work schedule.

Not everything in life is about career advancement.

[atsuzaki]

...No?

I think people who wants to work from home should be able to. I'm doing hybrid personally as well now, it's great for keeping my chronic pain under control. And I enjoy coming in couple days a week to a quieter office (as lots are doing hybrid/mixed wfh as well).

Internet has conditioned us to think that people can only have extreme beliefs, and any disagreement means their opinion must be the polar extreme opposite of mine. I can simultaneously appreciate opportunities I've got from socializing with people in a fully-WFO setting while also appreciating benefits of WFH ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[kelnos]

Then say that! Your post was a single sentence in support of office work.

This isn't about assuming extreme positions, this is about reading what someone has written and responding to it at face value.

[robertlagrant]

Why go off one example and pretend it's the whole topic? They were just saying it's easily possible to have meaningful conversations, as a counter to the previous comment.

[kelnos]

Not sure what you mean; please re-read the comment I'm replying to. They made a single point on a single topic, and I addressed it.

[necovek]

So everyone should work from home?

Yes, that's not what you said, just like that's not what the comment you replied to said.

[kelnos]

The problem is that for all these alleged career-defining opportunities to happen, you need a bunch of people in an office. That means that people need to be required to go to an office.

I explicitly did not say "everyone should work from home", using words like "many of us", so right, "that's not what [I] said", and you're just making up an argument where none exists.

[ornornor]

> Not everything in life is about career advancement.

Well said :)

[bilvar]

Yes, and when people going to the office get more opportunities, more advancement and higher compensation, he/she will be complaining for making "less money for the same work". Or they will start complaining about how unfair is that those opportunities only arise in the office and demand that there will be "procedures" for them to be available remotely.

[kelnos]

Long ago I accepted that if I want better work-life balance and more flexible arrangements, there would be consequences. In my post above I explicitly called it out as a trade-off: I am totally fine with lower pay and fewer promotions if it means I get to live more of my life outside work.

If you're not ok with that, that's your choice to make: find jobs that give you those opportunities, and tilt your work-life balance toward work. Hell, you should be happy that I have more flexibility in my working arrangements and can make this trade-off: less competition for you to get what you want.

[bilvar]

I commend you for having this approach. I'm biased from my experience from colleagues that got annoyed when they realized they couldn't have their cake and eat it too.

[ornornor]

Not speaking for GP, but as far as I’m concerned I’m happy to stay far far far away from office politics games and getting paid less than those who do while having half or a quarter of their workloads.

[bilvar]

See reply to GP. I commend you too.

[captainbland]

It turns out using that time and energy I was spending on my commute on my work was actually good for my career.

[RestlessMind]

> Not everything in life is about career advancement.

But you see, all the decision makers about the RTO are the sort of people who would be obsessed with career development. So they would be very biased against this sentiment. In an employer's market, they have all the power now.

[giantg2]

This seems wild to me. It seems like the company and managers are doing something wrong if all your advancement is coming from random unofficial chats.

[The_Colonel]

That's exactly how managers advance. Through good personal relationships across the organization, rapport, "alignment".

[giantg2]

Maybe for managers. But really it should be about delivering completed projects, especially for technical folks.

[RestlessMind]

Beyond a certain level, career advancement happens only by doing work which is much more than just delivering technical projects. That level is typically attained in 4-6 years by a competent software engineer.

(Yes, I am aware of a few exceptions who attain "fellow" or equivalent levels, but they are the exceptions to my observation and such positions are anyway <1% of the technical workforce; not everyone can be a fellow).

[joxel]

If you’re not just a code monkey than those chats are great for coming up with new ideas and fleshing them out over time. But hey you can also just be a code monkey that completes projects assigned to them. To each their own I guess.

[giantg2]

Yes, and people can be assholes if they want.

Maybe what you describe works at some places or for specific people. Many companies will ignore your ideas. Your title is code monkey and that's all you do - shut up and listen to us important people. Some managers are very threatened by their subordinates, or are unimaginative. The business side generally wants what they want. God forbid you suggest some new approach.

[whynaut]

My career has advanced just fine over Slack and Zoom.

[SpeedilyDamage]

Technical folks simply cannot do their jobs without solid working relationships, and those are not as well formed digitally.

Remote work will continue to reduce over the next couple of years. If you don’t have a real reason for being at home during the work day, expect to be back in the office soon.

[giantg2]

"Technical folks simply cannot do their jobs without solid working relationships, and those are not as well formed digitally."

Any real data on this? All the data our company has shows increased performance during WFH, such as an increase in deliveries and decrease in cycle time. So even if it's not as well formed, it seems it's formed sufficiently.

[Adraghast]

Thanks for the tip, but I was doing good work remotely ten years before covid and will continue to do so ten years after.

[RestlessMind]

Tell me again how long have you been working? For as long as human society has existed, advancements came from in-person connections which were fostered by these random unofficial chats.

If you expect anything else, you might expect humans to not be like humans.

[guhidalg]

Wow where do you work that management has their shit together that well?

[moremetadata]

Norwich Union (Aviva) the insurance company have a system called The Wall iirc (been over decade).

Its a free for all for asking questions, sending messages, making unofficial FYI notes, its an attempt to document those conversations that would have otherwise taken place between individuals. Everyone from the top down has read/write access. Main objective to document those conversations, so nothing gets missed, like people being otherwise engaged in meetings/phone calls. Self Censorship takes place because everyone can view it, reduces staff harassment problems.

[h0p3]

That's a good idea.

[giantg2]

Management doesn't have it together, but they do make suggestions about taking on certain projects etc that are good for your career and at least talk about plans to getting to the next level (sometimes).

[ljf]

How much of your working life was in person vs remote?

I agree most of my 'big breaks' were face to face, that was due to the point I was in my career at that time. I've still had some great progression during remote working times - sometimes you just need to make these things happen - contacting someone just for a chat if that is what you need, turning up to online meetings early to spend a little time chatting before the proper meeting, or asking specific people if they have time to stay on.

I really think half the problem is that we aren't yet used to the new rules of engagement, and are still figuring out what feels right. But opportunity is still there.

[Implicated]

Question for you to help satisfy my curiosity about this a bit... do you also enjoy socializing in bars or the like?

[atsuzaki]

Not really. I'm very introverted and not good with strangers, actually in the process of getting an autism diagnosis right now.

But I really enjoy socializing with folks with similar interests (e.g., tech), and I work with a lot of neurodivergent colleagues which puts less of a strain on my social battery as I don't have to be "normal"---we're all weird and it's fine.

Still, my social battery drains quickly nonetheless, I tend to have to leave after hanging out for an hour or two.

[User23]

That's called office politics.

[hdjjhhvvhga]

Moreover, personally I'd prefer it stays this way. When I take a break and go to the kitchen to get a coffee, it is also a part of mental hygiene - I need to clear my mind as it needs some rest, too. So the last thing I want is someone bothering me about a merge request or some planned feature. A weekend trip, on the other hand, is perfectly fine.

[sodapopcan]

Hear hear. I worked at a place that pair programmed all the time (I liked it that way—it's why I joined the company) but it meant that I always had to eat lunch at my desk. To me it's crazy to be talking all morning then talk all through lunch then talk all afternoon! But to each their own.

[kelnos]

Wait what? Why does pair programming mean that you have to eat lunch at your desk?

You are just as capable of taking a bag lunch to a cafeteria, or going out to eat...

[sodapopcan]

Because I want an hour a silence during the day. Eating in the kitchen means eating with people and having to talk more, or at least listen more.

[MrScruff]

Completely disagree. I probably have 3 or 4 of these spontaneous conversations that wouldn’t otherwise happen a day when I’m in the office. It might start with ‘what are you working on’ and branch off from there, it’s not just small talk.

[juve1996]

Or it could be another negative coworker that wastes your time to complain, gossip, or talk about other employees, or criticize other people.

It will be impossible to quantify these "water cooler chats." For as much work gets done, just as much probably doesn't.

[mort96]

I have a ton of informal conversations with people I don't have formal meetings with, just because we happen to go to the coffee machine at the same time or happen to go eat lunch at the same time. Some of those conversations are non-job-related (which is valuable, since strong social connections with colleagues are valuable), but a lot end up being on job stuff. I end up just informally talking with sales people, customer service people, managers, etc, and hearing about stuff from their perspective or the stuff that's on their minds is incredibly useful.

[leros]

I would probably say that 95% of my creative problem solving type work happened in unstructured conversations like hallway conversations. A lot of value was definitely lost there.

[ftcHn]

+1

Some of my best ideas that ended up being company changing started as a conversation walking to lunch with colleagues.

Initially these ideas were just undeveloped thoughts and I would never dream about booking a meeting to present them. Having a chance to develop them in a casual conversation might have been the difference between successfully building the thing and not doing it at all.

I love working from home but miss the unstructured collaboration.

[JohnFen]

> Initially these ideas were just undeveloped thoughts and I would never dream about booking a meeting to present them.

Your company doesn't have informal communications channels for this sort of thing? Team/Slack/whatever? In every place I've worked for the last 15-20 years (it was different before that), such informal "watercooler" talks have never happened in person, whether everyone was in the office or not. It was always over electronic communications.

The reason for this is that it's less disruptive to other productive work.

[DangerousPie]

I have had a lot of interesting conversations with colleagues from other teams while grabbing a coffee. Sometimes it's just meaningless small talk about the weekend but sometimes we talk about work and help each other find solutions to problems, or realize we should collaborate. And even if it's just small talk, making those kinds of connections can make it a lot easier to get in touch with them in the future.

[deafpolygon]

Same. I don't really collaborate in the hallways, I don't think IT people tend to.

[downrightmike]

Probably, because if you do, you get asked to fix something and you're already overloaded with work to do and people can't be bothered to google.

[nicpottier]

What? This is a crazy anecdote. I believe you but understand that's not the norm. I have had many and know if others having many as well.

Companies that are all remote will survive but they won't thrive and in a competitive market will lose to those that are in person.

I say that after running a company that was one or the other at various times. The periods when we were all in person (constantly, not as a special event) is when real innovative progress was made.

[sekai]

> I've seen this idea repeated many times, but in over 20 years in the tech industry

Exactly, and how many of those conversations are wasted on nothing? Sure, there's a social element to it, so how about we highlight that aspect and not some "lightbulb" moment that derives from small talk.

[mort96]

Conversations which let you get to know your colleagues better are "wasted on nothing" to you? Is there no point to knowing your colleagues?

[whynaut]

there’s no point adding 2+ hours of commuting to my day for what could be a video call.

I don’t really understand why many commenters here are expressing a sentiment that you can’t get to know someone digitally. Some of the best people in my life were met online, both personally and professionally.

[mort96]

You don't get coincidental conversations between people of different department with no set agenda through a zoom meeting.

I'm not saying it's worth 2+ hours of commuting. And honestly, I think it's bullshit that employers expect commuting time to be unpaid; if having people in the office is something they consider valuable, they should be paying for that commute time. But I reject the idea that those conversations have no value.

[JohnFen]

I accept the idea that those conversations have value. I reject the idea that they can only happen in person. I have no data on this, just my own personal experience and observations over the years.

[epistemer]

It is all bullshit.

The problem is that it is obvious how useless and misconfigured our entire corporate management structures are with remote work so the easiest solution is to go back to the office.

The pandemic was a fun exercise in forced, real efficiency but we need to get back to the Dilbert cartoon version of life because the Dilbert cartoon characters call the shots and put a ton of time into becoming those characters.

[RestlessMind]

The most meaningful collaborations I have seen in my 20+ years of work involved a small group of 3 to 5 people huddled around a whiteboard. I can make a list of top 10 collaborations I recollect and none of them were remote interactions. In-person somehow made the collaboration easier.

[joxel]

You must work in a boring ass place. We are always talking about ideas to each other. Though I do research so maybe that’s why.