[xupybd]

While this is true, you have a lot more control over this than you may realize. Especially if you're a male seeking a female. Most men think they same physical characteristics they're interested in will be appealing to the opposite sex. There are many physical traits that women prefer but they're less shallow than us men.

Confidence and the ability to talk are huge. You're social status among your peer group. How well you dress. Do you look after yourself physically. All of these things can be developed.

[boppo1]

Oh I'm plenty aware. I wish someone had explained it to me when I was 16 though.

"There's truly nothing you can do today to change her mind. All the things that would have made her say 'yes' are things you had to start working on 2 years ago. Today you can start working on who you will be in 2 years and persuading the girl you meet then to say 'yes'."

[zozbot234]

I disagree that guys will only see results from self-improvement in two years; there are behavioral changes that should be mastered immediately. Learning to treat women with proper respect and still come across as attractive to them can be highly beneficial, and is not exactly something that society strives to teach. The earlier you master this, the better.

[boppo1]

>Learning to treat women with proper respect and still come across as attractive to them

The unfortunate thing is that not only is this totally opaque, but society actually gives instruction that doesn't work, i.e. bad advice. That's how we get 'nice guys' and pickup artists. Young men have an overwhelming need for intimacy that they're driven to satisfy and there. are. no. guides. on how to obtain it.

I do pretty okay in that department now, but only from 20 miserable years of trial-and-error. Looking back, I had no opportunity to learn the things I know despite desperately looking for them. Felt like I was playing a game where everyone but me and my friends knew the rules. An older brother or maybe a coach might have been a help, but that's all I can think of.

[zozbot234]

I might agree that the situation 20 years ago was this bad; but things have changed quite a bit. We now know a whole lot more as to how women generally relate to this sex and relationships thing - because they've been telling us first-hand! We have not exactly come to a general realization throughout society that there is such a thing as behaving and relating to others in a more attractive way, but we're not far from it either.

And we also know a lot more about what doesn't work. As it turns out, nice guys simply have no need to gaslight or bamboozle others into doing things they don't actually want, quite unlike the males in OP's story; they have way better things to care about. And the best part is that women can tell; these are not things you can fool anyone about for very long.

[Gigachad]

There are different types of nice guys. One group is the one that has been told to "be nice, and respectful" and tries to do that but goes over the top to the point of simping and being creepy in a hard to describe way.

They aren't trying to be creepy, they are just misguided and lost.

[caskstrength]

> There are many physical traits that women prefer but they're less shallow than us men.

> Confidence and the ability to talk are huge. You're social status among your peer group. How well you dress. Do you look after yourself physically. All of these things can be developed.

So, "fit smooth-talking alpha guy"? I'm not sure I agree with it, but your description seems _very_ shallow TBH.

[xupybd]

I'm not sure I understand where you're coming from.

What traits, that are found attractive, would you describe as less shallow?

[caskstrength]

> What traits, that are found attractive, would you describe as less shallow?

You got it backwards - my point was that your description of "many physical traits that women prefer but they're less shallow than us men" is as shallow as "hot lustful babe with big tits" or some other stereotypical horny teenager's dream partner that you probably meant by "shallow".

Also, you know that "gender X is less shallow than Y" is sexist statement, right?

[xupybd]

I say less shallow as they are personality traits not purely physical. I'm interested in knowing what you would consider less shallow. Unless your point is that attraction is shallow. That I could see.

>Also, you know that "gender X is less shallow than Y" is sexist statement, right?

I strongly disagree. It's like saying women on average prefer people and men on average prefer things. It's not a judgment just an observation.

[caskstrength]

> I say less shallow as they are personality traits not purely physical.

Majority of things you mentioned are not personality traits.

> Unless your point is that attraction is shallow. That I could see.

Yes, obviously.

> It's like saying women on average prefer people and men on average prefer things. It's not a judgment just an observation.

Your anecdotes are not statistics.

[xupybd]

> Majority of things you mentioned are not personality traits.

Here are the things I listed:

    Confidence and the ability to talk are huge
    You're social status among your peer group. 
    How well you dress. 
    Do you look after yourself physically.

Lets break them down.

"Confidence and the ability to talk" is absolutely a personality trait.

"You're social status among your peer group" this happens as a result of your personality. If you are a jerk you will not be well liked and will not have very good standing amongst your peers.

"How well you dress" this is an external reflection of who you are. Do you put effort into picking clothing that fits and looks good. This has a massive impact of how other people perceive you. It's the first insight someone gets into your personality. Does this person care enough to put effort into their external appearance. Do they value the perception others have of them.

"Do you look after yourself physically" women and men are looking for life partners. Often people to have a family with. If you want to stick around for long enough to do these things you're going to have to maintain some level of a healthy lifestyle. That desire to maintain health is a personality trait. It doesn't need to be that you spend 2 hours in the gym each day. Just that you haven't let yourself go to the point that you need a mobility scooter and a cpap machine.

> Your anecdotes are not statistics.

Sure if you'd like data please refer to these papers.

Sex differences in sexual attraction for aesthetics, resources and personality across age https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8133465/

Men and Things, Women and People: A Meta-Analysis of Sex Differences in Interests

https://sci-hub.ru/10.1037/a0017364

[sinity]

Confidence - falsifying your personality. Social status. Yeah, not shallow at all.