[Zxian]

The business transaction between me and a restaurant is for the food and service they provide. I pay the restaurant, the restaurant pays the labour.

Refusing to tip isn't refusing payment. If it were, I'd be illegal (i.e. theft). Labelling this as "sharing the labour cost" is precisely the problem at hand.

If I hand my pizza delivery driver a $5 bill, I intend it to be a bonus for the driver, not a subsidy for the business. I have zero incentive to pay the business any more than the prices they advertise.

[molotovh]

You're absolutely correct regarding tips being a "subsidy for the business". The reason "tipped minimum wage" (where it exists) is lower than actual minimum wage is because the business claims a "tip credit" towards meeting their minimum wage obligation. They're essentially telling the government "this person will make up the difference (or more) in tips, and that will meet our legal obligation to pay the minimum wage."

In most jurisdictions, this is figured by taking the employee's wages plus reported tips for each pay period and dividing them by the employee's clocked hours for that pay period. If that result is not at least actual minimum wage, the employer normally owes the employee the difference.

I don't know if it's a lack of knowledge or actual malicious pay practices (probably some of both), but number of people I meet in the service industry who don't know that last bit and tell me they've never been paid the difference for "dead" shifts (those that generate little to no tips) is staggering.

[godelski]

> I don't know if it's a lack of knowledge or actual malicious pay practices (probably some of both), but number of people I meet in the service industry who don't know that last bit and tell me they've never been paid the difference for "dead" shifts (those that generate little to no tips) is staggering.

That's because wage theft is relatively common among the service industry and is also why several states outlawed special wage. You can probably imagine how easy it is to perform wage theft in this situation simply because how difficult accurately calculating that differential is. You're basically relying on every single person to act in good faith in an environment where every person has large incentives to act in bad faith (employers can easily get away with not paying and employees can easily pocket tips and not report them. One of these, or just the perception of, can create a coupled feedback loop with the other).

[tptacek]

No, in an American restaurant, the business transaction is between you, the restaurant, and your server. You are explicitly given permission to refuse (extra) payment to your server, and the restaurant (to a limited extent) backstops that risk for the employee. You're going to have bad relationships (and experiences) with American restaurants if you make a habit of undertipping.

[vuln]

In an American retail or grocery store is my business transaction between me, the store and the cashier?

What's the difference between a server and a cashier? One walks between point a and b instead of standing in place? How much should I tip a cashier; 20% of the cost of my groceries?

[tptacek]

No, grocery stores aren't restaurants. The difference is restaurants elect to establish different terms.

[vuln]

If my grocery store has a hot bar of to go food that is packaged by the employee and handed to me to eat on their patio or take home. Should I tip that employee? If they worked at a restaurant they would tipped. My point is the waiter chooses to take less pay in hope of a tip, while the grocery store employee would rather know what their check is going to be and have stable reliable verifiable income. Wait staff don't have that. They make $0 on paper, they take the risk to avoid taxes, while the grocery store employee pays their "fair" share of taxes and social programs. While the waitstaff complains about tips and not earning a living wage.

Complaining about a job they chose when there is a multitude of jobs that you know exactly what you're getting paid based on your hours.

All this being said I do tip. I don't mind it. I find it hilarious when they spin the iPad around around to "answer a few questions" ie "please please tip me, I'm not gonna look or judge you but I am going to look and judge you and most likely passive aggressively spell and say your name wrong to show you why you should tip better!!"

[tptacek]

Does the point of sale system ask for a tip? Is there a check with a tip line on it that you sign? Is there a prominent tip jar? Then: tip (or do business elsewhere). Else: don't.

[Dylan16807]

You're missing the point. The existence of that line or that jar will change whether tipping exists, even though your relationship with that person hasn't changed at all.

So maybe it's not really a three way relationship in any of these situations.