[sparc24]

> carried Brazil for 3 world cup winnings

Complete and utter bullshit.

At 62 WC in Chile he scored and assisted against Mexico in the first game and then got hurt in the game against the Czechs and sat out the rest of the tournament. He did get a winner's medal so technically you are correct.

In 1970 he played with arguably the greatest team of all time.

He also played most his life for Santos in a shit farmer's league. His 1000 goal record is also suspect. He was surrounded by great players

> Without Pele football might not be popular as it's today.

That' laughable.

Maradona, Cryuff, Messi far superior for a number of reasons.

Maradon - went to Napoli and won. They never won anything before or since. Naples against Italy in 1990 was the only time the Argentinian anthem didn't get booed. And they were playing against the hosts. 86 he took a shit squad all the way. Single handedly.

Cryuff - WC, Barca, Total Football.

Messi - If it hadn't been for a certain Gonazalo Higuain or Placios he would be sitting w/ 2 winners medals. The consistency over almost 2 decades is unreal. Again took a shit Argentina squad all the way and beat one of the tournament favorites.

[prmph]

Please be careful about expressing strong opinions about things you apparently know little about.

> At 62 WC in Chile he scored and assisted against Mexico in the first game and then got hurt in the game against the Czechs and sat out the rest of the tournament. He did get a winner's medal so technically you are correct.

Pele may have been injured early, but his performance in their first games are still important. If they lost those games, they would have been kicked out of the tournament early.

> In 1970 he played with arguably the greatest team of all time.

Doesn't diminish his contributions. He was a key part of what made that team "great".

> He also played most his life for Santos in a shit farmer's league. His 1000 goal record is also suspect. He was surrounded by great players

Of all the tired arguments people make to detract from Pele's accomplishments, this one rankles me the most. There was nothing "shit" about the Brazilian league at that time, and it had nothing to do with farmers. To claim otherwise is to betray a complete lack of any knowledge of football history. The South American leagues were actually the most competitive at that time. Their teams met and demolished Europeans club teams regularly. And the national team composed of players from this "shit farmer's" league was able to win the world cup 3 times within 12 years. Must have been some special "farmers."

You also contradict yourself. He played in a "shit" league, and yet he was surrounded by "great" players from that same league?

His more than 1000 goals are all attested to by FIFA. I'm not sure what is "suspect" about them.

> 86 he took a shit squad all the way. Single handedly.

The Argentina team of 86 was a shit squad without Maradona? I suggest you do do some proper research. I should probably stop here. The whole of your comment is an emotional outburst devoid of any real logic.

[sparc24]

> Please be careful about expressing strong opinions about things you apparently know little about.

Yeah looks like you know next to nothing about what you speak.

> Pele may have been injured early, but his performance in their first games are still important. If they lost those games, they would have been kicked out of the tournament early.

Right. You are a joke. The one game he played was what won Brazil the WC that year. In 62 it was Garrincha who took Brazil to the promised land. Benezema has a winners medal too btw.

Yeah I stand by the shit league comment. They didn't even have proper record keeping so the 1200+ goals is a bad claim. He was surrounded by great players at the WC Jairzinho, Gérson, Tostão, Rivelino in 1970.

You are comparing that to Burucchaga and Voldano. Lol. I sincerely hope you bring more rigor to your day job.

> His more than 1000 goals are all attested to by FIFA.

Lol. Pelé included goals scored in friendlies or matches against semi-professional or even amateur teams. These facts are not even in dispute

Christ, you are not even wrong.

[prmph]

> Right. You are a joke. The one game he played was what won Brazil the WC that year. In 62 it was Garrincha who took Brazil to the promised land. Benezema has a winners medal too btw.

He played two games, not one game as you claim (a factual error). He also actually played, and scored, unlike Benzema. And, as I said, if they lost the games he played in, they would have been kicked out. You have addressed none of these facts, and have resorted to name calling and ad-hominem attacks.

> Yeah I stand by the shit league comment. They didn't even have proper record keeping so the 1200+ goals is a bad claim. He was surrounded by great players at the WC Jairzinho, Gérson, Tostão, Rivelino in 1970.

So if it was a shit league how come players in that league won the world cup 3 times in 12 years? All his goals are well attested to (do your research), I'm not sure what you mean by lack of proper record keeping.

> He was surrounded by great players at the WC Jairzinho, Gérson, Tostão, Rivelino in 1970.

Please read my earlier comment in reply to this argument of yours.

> You are comparing that to Burucchaga and Voldano. Lol. I sincerely hope you bring more rigor to your day job.

Hmmm, Valdano for example, won the UEFA cup with Real Madrid in 1986, scoring twice in the final. He also scored several important goals (4 in all) in the world cup that year. If that is a mediocre player then Pele's team-mates were also mediocre.

> Pelé included goals scored in friendlies or matches against semi-professional or even amateur teams. These facts are not even in dispute.

They are still goals, no? They are all certified by FIFA. You claimed they are "suspect", the implication being that they are somehow not genuine or falsified.

> Christ, you are not even wrong.

Indeed, I am not wrong because I am arguing based on facts, not irrational emotion.

[pibechorro]

I agree. But.. a) despite all the valid criticisms, Pele was still a great of his generation. Players like him, Distefano, etc where ahead of their time and helped modernize football. Respect.

B) Messi did not take a shit team to wc glory, the 2014 team had the best defense of the tournament and players like Mascherano, Dimaria, Kun, etc where hardly shit. They where just simply unlucky with injuries (kun, dimaria, higuan all not 100%) and the missed opportunities in the final by the whole front line, including Messi.

This 2022 team had a record two year unbeaten run with 3 major trophys (copa, wc, continental). That is hardly a shit team, its the opposite.

Maradonas 1990 final run WAS a shit team, and he did it with a broken ankle.

[prmph]

There is nothing valid about the criticisms you are replying to. I have made a sibling comment that explains why.

[zahrc]

Maradona is a cheat, an arrogant one even. Which is a shame, cause he was a skilled individual.

You can argue about achievements all you like, but Maradonas personality does not hold up against Pele.

[mhh__]

Messi also missed the goal in 2014