[chunk_waffle]

> It is nothing more than a thinly veiled attempt to stick a scarlet letter on immigrants.

I completely disagree, otherwise I wouldn't have worked on the program at all.

> every legal immigrant and likely many illegal immigrants already have documents like green cards and passports they can use rather to fly.

This is true, legal immigrants can still fly. It does add more friction to some illegal immigrants and I don't think that's a bad thing.

It also helps prevent identity theft and sets a bare minimum for states handing out identity-proving documents. I've been in DMVs when the new system caught fake documents and fake licenses that would not have been caught before (having worked on both the REAL ID and non-REAL ID systems.)

> In the end, this program places the overwhelming burden on US citizens who don't already have a passport (the poorest 66% of us)

I don't think the requirements for obtaining a REAL ID are overwhelming for legal citizens and immigrants. Also, keep in mind it is the state that sets the price of a REAL ID card. The federal government even gave grants to many (all?) states and territories to implement the program.

> doing very little to actually make air travel safer.

I agree with this. I don't think it particularly improves the security or safety of flights either and wish the whole program was decoupled from flying. There are real improvements to the security of DMV's systems and their vetting processes. Especially for some states/territories that were handing out ID's and licenses like candy. Though in a whole the program has been a mess as can be seen with the numerous extensions.

[landemva]

Right, there was no friction for 9/11 persons who boarded the planes. They simply walked on.

More surveillance and recording of location of lawful persons does not help security. This is a slowly tightening prison blanket.

> security of DMV's systems

It's a _license_ to operate motor vehicle. Can be on paper without picture to fulfill that purpose.

[chunk_waffle]

Boarding a plane before 9/11 was much easier, and I'm not necessarily convinced that TSA, DHS, or REAL ID have a security impact on flying relative to their cost and burden on citizens. I think there is a lot of incompetence and unnecessary expenses there. So we're in agreement on that.

I think the security screening (I might even call it mild molestation) required to board a flight should trump any need for any identity document. I don't think REAL ID's goals should be co-mingled with flying.

I'd also agree that a driver's license shouldn't be an identity document either. But unfortunately at some point in history it was decided that a DL should be an identity document too so unfortunately it's wrapped up with everything else.

There are not just REAL ID licenses either, there are REAL ID IDs too, just for identity.

[lern_too_spel]

> I don't think the requirements for obtaining a REAL ID are overwhelming for legal citizens and immigrants.

Maybe the computer systems are well-thought out and efficient, but what you're missing is that DMVs are terribly time-wasting, and nobody wants to go to one until it's absolutely necessary. Until the federal government makes it a priority to clean up customer-facing bureaucracies at all levels of government they interact with, these sorts of migrations will remain quagmires.

[chunk_waffle]

> Maybe the computer systems are well-thought out and efficient

They're not. Far from it. Not the systems implemented for the states, and not the systems implemented by the federal government. At the end of the day it is enterprise software written to specs created by state and federal government. In most cases the new system has improvements over the previous one (better UI, more secure), but that's just because the federal government helped pay the bill for a shiny new system.

> what you're missing is that DMVs are terribly time-wasting, and nobody wants to go to one until it's absolutely necessary

That's a fair point. When a state/territory switches over to a new REAL ID system there is definitely a significant increase in per-customer processing time. After a few weeks the staff is better equipped and a lot of the software issues have been ironed out and they get faster but it may always take a bit more time than before. I've seen cases where a customer had to come back multiple times over the course of a week (due to no fault of their own) to get their license and I've seen cases where they are in and out in a few minutes with license in hand (some states print at their offices, some do factory printing and mail out.)

> Until the federal government makes it a priority to clean up customer-facing bureaucracies at all levels of government they interact with, these sorts of migrations will remain quagmires.

The customer-facing side is the state/territory-run DMVs though. The states have to collect a bit more information to comply with REAL ID but they have nearly all the control over the customer experience. Maybe the federal government could withhold funds for future updates to the systems if states don't meet some criteria for fast processing and better customer service but I won't hold my breath (though that would be great.)