[Lanrei]

This article makes one assumption without justification and then follows it to a wrong conclusion.

When bees sting other insects they can sting them multiple times, like a wasp. If you give them time a bee will usually be able to work it's stinger out of you and go on it's merry way. Their stingers just happen to get stuck in skin.

Here's a basic video discussing the topic: https://youtu.be/nTVsqc2CCGo

[h0l0cube]

Why would honey bees evolve to leave behind an autonomous pump with their stinger? I don’t think the article suggests that all stings result in suicide, it merely answers the question of why it happens at all, and why it is peculiar to only a select subgroup of species in the entire animal kingdom

[watwut]

> Why would honey bees evolve to leave behind an autonomous pump with their stinger?

Evolution is not an intentional God. It does not have plans and it does not think. It is a randomized process in which not being disadvantage too much can make the trait survive.

[schneems]

So that advantage should be observable and the question answerable, hence the article.

[watwut]

No, there does not have to be advantage nor clear answer to question. A trait that produces no advantage can remain. A trait that produces disadvantages can remain too - just less often.

Improbable things happen in practice. Just less often.

[h0l0cube]

> No, there does not have to be advantage nor clear answer to question. A trait that produces no advantage can remain.

What you're talking about is a spandrel, and eusociality is not that. I'd recommend reading the article more closely. Much of it covers the evolution argument with depth and nuance – or at least more depth than I've seen in the HN comments section.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spandrel_(biology)

[watwut]

I am not talking about either.

[schneems]

To paraphrase my understanding of your position: a suicidal trait picked up by an entire species is a totally neutral trait that somehow neither provides advantage nor disadvantage and still hasn’t been lost and the reason that it provides neither positive nor negative benefit to that species is unknowable.

[watwut]

It is suicidal only in very limited rare circumstances. It also kills a single otherwise short living individual unable to reproduce. The individual belongs to an otherwise large colony.

So yes, the trait has negligible impact on survival of the species and it is entirely plausible for them to survive despite the trait being super slight disadvantage.

Also, they did not "picked it". They are insects, they made no decision.

[imtringued]

It is only suicidal in specific contexts and even then it is technically not suicide because it is the attacker that kills the bee most of the time.

[glenstein]

>Why would honey bees evolve to leave behind an autonomous pump with their stinger?

Or for that matter why would they evolve the barbed "fish hook" causing the stinger to stick in?

[the_af]

It could be an adaptation for stinging mammals, where the venom pump would matter more than when stinging other insects.

Though wasps don't need it and they are very effective at causing pain in mammals. The article mentions different evolutionary paths.

[spc476]

And here's the video they're talking about: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-C77ujnLZo

[cactusplant7374]

I cringed thinking about this. Does anyone wait and let the bee leave?

[forgotmypw17]

I've seen it done by someone practicing bee sting therapy.

[imtringued]

Yeah, other insects because the time needed to pull the stinger out is much shorter.