[coutego]

I understand that this means "center" as per USA standards. Given that USA leans towards the extreme individualism and quite strongly to the right (Sanders would be considered center-left in Western Europe) I guess this means that now chatGPT is right wing by European standards.

That's a bit concerning, to be honest.

[bundze]

I disagree. When it comes to social issues, American left-wing could be considered far-left in many countries (basing on the recent Stanford's guide to political correctness).

[coutego]

Considered far-left in any country in Western Europe? (genuine question).

I follow USA news a bit and nothing comes to my mind right now that could be considered far left around here. But of course I don't follow every political debate in USA, so I'm sure I'm missing some dividing issue... Do you have an example of something that could be considered far left in Europe, perhaps?

[bundze]

Both you and the author of the parent comment I replied to use 'Europe'/'European' and 'Western Europe' interchangibly. That's probably causing most misunderstandings. I live in Poland which is undoubtedly an European country (right in the middle of Europe) but is rather conservative. For example gay marriage is still a controversial idea here - it's not permitted and the majority of public opinion is against.

It does seem like Eastern/Central Europe is generally more socially conservative than Western Europe - but there are many exceptions. Czech Republic is a notable liberal outlier. Predominantly Catholic countries like Italy and Ireland are rather conservative (especially when it comes to issues that the Catholic church is outspoken on like gay marriage, abortion and IVF treatments).

A bunch of examples here: https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2018/10/29/eastern-and-...

What I'm trying to say is that Europe is not a united entity and political attitudes vary greatly between countries.

Also, I do think American Democrats could be considered far left here in Poland when it comes to social issues (abortion, LGBTQ rights, racism). On the other hand we have free healthcare and free university education and these are taken for granted here. Is Poland more left-wing than US or more right-wing then? I'd say that's incomparable.

[Beltalowda]

There's a gap between the political representation and what people on the left actually believe. The political representation definitely leans to the right compared to Western-European countries, for the most part anyway. But if I look at some of the discourse in American left-wing circles then ... yeah, I find some of it is pretty far out, and I typically vote things like the Socialist Party or Green Party (in a country where this actually means something).

I suspect this is due to a combination of 1) not having much power, being relatively "isolated" in the political debate, not having to compromise; 2) not having any actual experience with socialist/social-democracy reality, leading to an unnuanced utopian view of things; 3) a kind of response to some of the bonkers right-wing politics of the US.

[Dma54rhs]

The whole left wing culture war theatre part wouldn't fly in any country in EU.

American abortion freedom, try finding people in Europe who think abortion in 9th month is business as usual. No one thinks having id card to vote is racist (its as difficult and costly to get one here), cultural appropriation people wouldn't comprehend. Affirmative action etc etc.

The American left wing political spectrum has nothing to do with EU left who fight for workers not all that crap.

[fzeroracer]

All of your arguments here are either incorrect or ignore the context for why something is the case in the US.

Like there's literally a running joke on British museums appropriating artifacts, abortion laws in the EU were generally around the same timeframe as the US (12-24 weeks) and so forth. The fact that the EU political systems favor workers means that yes, the EU is already far left in comparison to any progressive politician in the US.

[bundze]

The thing is, Europe is not a united entity and political attitudes vary greatly between countries.

For example Poland, where I live, is conservative, and American Democrats could be considered far left here when it comes to social issues (abortion, LGBTQ rights, racism). On the other hand, we have free healthcare and free university education and these are taken for granted here. Is Poland more left-wing than US or more right-wing then? I'd say that's incomparable.

[cwkoss]

> try finding people in Europe who think abortion in 9th month is business as usual.

Leftists in the US don't think that's business as usual either. You're literally getting mad at imaginary people.

[yucky]

Abortion is legal all the way up to delivery in 7 states + DC. I don't exactly have a dog in this fight, but I do find it interesting how many people don't realize just how few restrictions exist on abortion in some states like New Jersey for instance.

https://www.guttmacher.org/state-policy/explore/state-polici...

[cwkoss]

Less than 1% of abortions occur in the third trimester. I'd imagine nearly all of those are because the mom's life is in jeopardy.

There are a bunch of really stupid US state laws that just got passed that prevent doctors from removing a miscarried fetus until sepsis develops. Pretty barbaric - and these infections can often render the mother infertile, which feels extra cruel.

https://reason.com/2022/10/20/a-texas-woman-claims-that-she-...

Anti-abortion pundits like to paint a picture that there are hordes of party girls fully gestating babies and then aborting them right at the end just for kicks, but that's just a weird politically-expedient fantasy. These laws mostly hurt women who are trying to have children.

[UncleMeat]

“It is legal” and “it is business as usual” are two different things.

[fn-mote]

> No one thinks having id card to vote is racist

It is hard to say whether this is a left or right wing issue. I believe that both sides oppose the creation of a national ID, each for their own reasons. Example source: [1]

I do not feel response about abortion adds to the dialogue, but since it's so wrong at least here is a response:

> try finding people in Europe who think abortion in 9th month is business as usual

Same in America. Certainly illegal. The question is first trimester abortions.

[1] https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2021/08/voting-...

[yucky]

   > Same in America. Certainly illegal. The question is first trimester abortions.

Each state makes their own laws on abortion, and even just saying "same in America" on any state laws doesn't make sense.

There are absolutely states in the US where it is legal to get an abortion at any time in the pregnancy, for any reason.[1] Colorado, New Hampshire, New Mexico, Oregon, Vermont, Alaska and New Jersey + District of Columbia. Zero restrictions.

[1] https://www.guttmacher.org/state-policy/explore/state-polici...

[mijkal]

As a Bernie-style 'leftist', I can't say a response to this abortion assertion any better than Pete Buttigieg did on Fox news (<2 min clip), and I bet the vast majority of _all_ Americans would agree with this take:

https://youtu.be/wKOoWYfIzIw

[leereeves]

Laws are necessary because we can't trust everyone. Some women throw their newborn babies in the trash. Are you willing to trust them to "draw the line" too, or would you insist that the legislature draw a line at birth?

[fzeroracer]

The line is drawn at birth. I'm not sure what you're trying to say here unless you're arguing that those states that allow abortions at all stages allow you to abort a baby that has already been delivered.

[rektide]

> based on [one extremely narrow handpicked piece of evidence]

i feel like this sort of extreme bias is what has kept shifting the overton window in america away from a real center towards the radical extremist ends we've had to suffer through. brow beating bias like this with extremely narrow lenses is a bullshit asymmetry that adds so much noise & churn, that steals the oxygen from real conversations. i feel like the so called left (quite center) wants to have real discussions, has genuine intent, yet has to deal with this kind of own-the-libs attitude ad nauseum.

[loa_in_]

Stanford publications might be biased because they're American.

Politics is hard. There's no objectively "correct" politics so I won't delve into the topic further.

[Teever]

If you hadn't seen that Stanford guide that was recently posted what do you think your example for this post would have been?

[matthewdgreen]

Some random people on Twitter who don’t hold any political power.

[rosnd]

Does that even fit on the spectrum? From Europe things like the "Stanford's guide to political correctness" feel super niche in the same way that some weirdos on the left used to advocate for getting rid of ages of consent.