[greenie_beans]

agreed. the human nature argument is a lazy one against something like anarchism or any other alternative system. if we can be socialized to seek money (it starts with the piggy bank when we're like 4 years old), we can be socialized to not seek those things and instead seek something else. replace "money" or "greed" with any negative way that humans behave, like power or domination.

[ausbah]

where does the ability to mold humans to fit a certain set of standards end? incentives, culture, norms, etc. I think can shape someone's default mode of thinking and actions on the margin, but eventually you reach some point like the "New Soviet Man" where you're asking someone not to be human?

[teachrdan]

> like the "New Soviet Man" where you're asking someone not to be human?

I wonder if late American capitalism is doing the same with entrepreneur worship. Mainstream culture celebrates people who are self starters, constantly grinding, always on the lookout for unfulfilled human desires and new markets, sensitive to customers' feelings and individuality while somehow also completely indifferent to urgent systemic catastrophes like environmental destruction or the end of democracy (which require collective effort)...

This is not an ideology like Soviet dogma. But in capitalism's funny way, it's an omnipresent and coherent archetype nevertheless.

[annadiru]

Collectively held norms and expectations are commonplace across cultures, otherwise how would we effectively cooperate? They are kinda like protocols. There are many ways to raise people to uphold those sets of customs without falling into the domination and homogenization traps.

[greenie_beans]

i'm talking more about incentive structures as a way to encourage people to act towards the greater good within society, rather than having an individual fit a certain type. anarchism is all about individual self-determination, i.e. not trying to make everybody fit a certain set of standards.

but to your point of the new soviet man, how is that any different than the certain set of standards that we mold humans into today? we're raised to fit the status quo and be operatives for capital. we're compelled to look and dress a certain way, etc.

[serverholic]

I think that’s a pretty negative take. There are lots of positive ways that we can reduce dysfunction in humans.

For example we know that reducing poverty, increasing access to education, and increasing access to nutritious food increase IQ, and reduce crime.

In terms of culture, there is no such thing as a society without culture so why not build a culture based on kindness and mutual aid?

Our capitalist society makes us think the only answer is greed but it isn’t.

[serverholic]

Yes, the environment we grow up in plays a huge part in our development. Everything from nutrition during development to culture, values, etc. All shape how we think.

I was learning recently about Christopher Columbus and his encounters with native peoples and it’s fascinating how differently these people thought. The natives had a hard time understanding the colonizers and their endless need for gold and things.

Eventually some of them theorized that the European’s god is actually gold lol.