[ineedausername]

I'm not sure I follow.

I never found a reason to force myself to form any kind of habit, life lead me to my habits, either out of a specific need at the time or some kind of inner drive, but that's it.

I think this self-betterment I keep reading about online is nonsense, maybe we aren't talking about the same thing tho.

[deterministic]

> I think this self-betterment I keep reading about online is nonsense, maybe we aren't talking about the same thing tho.

Not at all. It is very much real. I used to lack confidence as an overweight shy teenager and decided to start doing kick-boxing. It completely changed my life. Not only did I loose weight but I also learned that I can do so much more than I ever imagined. Walking into a ring to fight a 6’3” bouncer and realising that he was afraid of me blew my mind.

[ineedausername]

The way you guys define "better" is so obvious that I really thought you were talking about something more than that.

In terms of what you talk about, confidence, muscle, productivity even... these are ways to become a better narcissist. But a better person? Nah... I'd argue you're worse now that your ego is pumped.

[danShumway]

It's a little bit odd to connect "bettering yourself" specifically with moral character and nothing else, but for whatever it's worth, it's also pretty clearly possible for people's morals and general character to improve over time.

This is also a somewhat unique definition of narcissism that I'm not familiar with: narcissism is not just another word for confidence and struggling with body image is not the same as humility.

[ineedausername]

Peoples morals do not improve, only temporarily, whatever misbehavior you've exhibited in your past you will do so again in the future. Your past behavior is the best predictor of what you're gonna do in the future. The character isn't something static in the course of life, but not on fundamental things.

About narcissism... where do I even begin. Let's just say that narcissism is the norm nowadays, especially in first world countries. I feel it's futile to describe further but I like the fact that people (me/you/anyone) see certain things in a different way.

[danShumway]

> Peoples morals do not improve, only temporarily

:shrug: Even if this was true, reducing harm and doing more good even in the short-term is a pretty worthwhile goal. Eventually people will slip up, and then they'll have to start again. I mean, I also have to shower every day to stay clean, but I'm not nihilistic about that just because I know I'm going to occasionally miss a few days.

But I also think this is also kind of observably false? I've seen racist/bigoted people become genuinely less bigoted over time. I'm not worried that they're going to suddenly relapse, and even in instances where they still have areas to work on or where they might slip backwards, it's still not really comparable to where they used to be.

> Let's just say that narcissism is the norm nowadays, especially in first world countries.

How does this make sense if people are immutable? Are they being born narcissists because of a new genetic problem? Is it that people's morals can improve or degrade, but only while they're children?

I don't see how you're squaring the idea that people can't change with the idea that society is becoming more narcissistic.

[ineedausername]

> I've seen racist/bigoted people become genuinely less bigoted over time

I've never seen this, and I won't be fooled if I do see it as it will be temporary/circumstantial I think.

> How does this make sense if people are immutable?

We aren't entirely immutable but I find it challenging to draw the exact line.

People can and do become more narcissistic in a pathological sense, you get into contact with such traits from your environment, you eventually contract the decease.

That doesn't mean you can change who you are in any meaningful way, it's just that (even unconsciously) adopting narcissistic traits is now in effect a positive adaptation (higher chances of becoming more "successfull" etc).

[danShumway]

Habits are formed through repetition, and that repetition can be a conscious decision. It is very obviously possible to train yourself to have better habits, people do it all the time.

I'm not sure what your specific definition of self-betterment is, but mine is that you can through guidance, external help, environmental changes, personal reflection, (occasionally) medication, and (importantly) personal repetition, practice, and conscious effort slowly fix problems with your behavior/attitudes and pick up working/life strategies that make you more productive and healthier, and it is good for most people to try and do so.

This is a kind of out-of-left-field comment that I'm not sure how to reply to. I don't think I understand what you're saying, because obviously there are good reasons to force ourselves to form habits? A huge percentage of learning any skill is in learning fundamentals in such a way that they become instinctive and where practicing them becomes habitual. Even day-to-day life habits like brushing your teeth are ingrained in us via conscious effort and conscious reinforcement, they're not something we accidentally pick up. So I have to assume I misunderstand what you mean by self-betterment and habits because I assume you're not arguing that people shouldn't consciously try to form habits, and I assume you're not arguing that it's impossible for people to learn to be better people or to pick up healthier habits than they have currently. I mean, that argument wouldn't even be a philosophical difference or a perspective difference, it would just be observably false.

If self betterment in general the way that most people understand it was nonsense then nobody would ever stop smoking, rehab would always be a waste of time, no one would ever lose weight or improve exercise habits, etc... And that's so clearly not the case that I have to assume you're using those words differently than most people.

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In any case, OP asking for help at the top of the thread is a kind of self betterment (although HN might not be the best place to do it or to get advice), and it's healthy for them to be putting in effort to understand themselves better and to get better at controlling their productivity. And it's extremely possible for them to see results; I bring up the records advice out of personal experience with it and out of personal experience looking back and seeing, "oh wow, I am way better at day-to-day tasks than I used to be." You can get better at this stuff. It's not a matter of just magically deciding to (which is part of my objection to the "just do it" advice I was replying to above), but self-improvement is a totally feasible thing for most people to do.

[ineedausername]

Alright then now it makes sense, the degree of what the word betterment entails is our difference.

I thought it meant to alter yourself, far more than just the results of adopting a healthy lifestyle, and i really believe it's not possible to really alter oneself.