[deterministic]

> I think this self-betterment I keep reading about online is nonsense, maybe we aren't talking about the same thing tho.

Not at all. It is very much real. I used to lack confidence as an overweight shy teenager and decided to start doing kick-boxing. It completely changed my life. Not only did I loose weight but I also learned that I can do so much more than I ever imagined. Walking into a ring to fight a 6’3” bouncer and realising that he was afraid of me blew my mind.

[ineedausername]

The way you guys define "better" is so obvious that I really thought you were talking about something more than that.

In terms of what you talk about, confidence, muscle, productivity even... these are ways to become a better narcissist. But a better person? Nah... I'd argue you're worse now that your ego is pumped.

[danShumway]

It's a little bit odd to connect "bettering yourself" specifically with moral character and nothing else, but for whatever it's worth, it's also pretty clearly possible for people's morals and general character to improve over time.

This is also a somewhat unique definition of narcissism that I'm not familiar with: narcissism is not just another word for confidence and struggling with body image is not the same as humility.

[ineedausername]

Peoples morals do not improve, only temporarily, whatever misbehavior you've exhibited in your past you will do so again in the future. Your past behavior is the best predictor of what you're gonna do in the future. The character isn't something static in the course of life, but not on fundamental things.

About narcissism... where do I even begin. Let's just say that narcissism is the norm nowadays, especially in first world countries. I feel it's futile to describe further but I like the fact that people (me/you/anyone) see certain things in a different way.

[danShumway]

> Peoples morals do not improve, only temporarily

:shrug: Even if this was true, reducing harm and doing more good even in the short-term is a pretty worthwhile goal. Eventually people will slip up, and then they'll have to start again. I mean, I also have to shower every day to stay clean, but I'm not nihilistic about that just because I know I'm going to occasionally miss a few days.

But I also think this is also kind of observably false? I've seen racist/bigoted people become genuinely less bigoted over time. I'm not worried that they're going to suddenly relapse, and even in instances where they still have areas to work on or where they might slip backwards, it's still not really comparable to where they used to be.

> Let's just say that narcissism is the norm nowadays, especially in first world countries.

How does this make sense if people are immutable? Are they being born narcissists because of a new genetic problem? Is it that people's morals can improve or degrade, but only while they're children?

I don't see how you're squaring the idea that people can't change with the idea that society is becoming more narcissistic.

[ineedausername]

> I've seen racist/bigoted people become genuinely less bigoted over time

I've never seen this, and I won't be fooled if I do see it as it will be temporary/circumstantial I think.

> How does this make sense if people are immutable?

We aren't entirely immutable but I find it challenging to draw the exact line.

People can and do become more narcissistic in a pathological sense, you get into contact with such traits from your environment, you eventually contract the decease.

That doesn't mean you can change who you are in any meaningful way, it's just that (even unconsciously) adopting narcissistic traits is now in effect a positive adaptation (higher chances of becoming more "successfull" etc).