[zuminator]

> This relatively recent idea that someone can become more female or more male through drugs and surgery

The Hijra community (Indian trans/non-binary) has been around for thousands of years, and surgical castration has been one traditional way for them to achieve their identity during that period. It's not relatively recent.

https://rpl.hds.harvard.edu/religion-context/case-studies/ge...

In any event, I think in a free society we must start with the premise that all things are permitted and only with valid reason restrict that freedom. There are many valid reasons, but merely being critical of someone else's means of existence is not what I would regard as sufficient reason to restrict their personal freedom. At a minimum, potentially cognizable harm should be shown. And to be clear, I don't think there's any potentially cognizable harm to be found in someone conforming to their own gender identity.

[graveli]

A castration cult that abducts young boys, chops their balls off, and sells them into the sex trade is not really a great example of this. It baffles me why people who support Western transgenderism liken it to the hijra, as it's hardly a flattering comparison.

[howinteresting]

Correct, the hijra community is an abusive set of cults with strict hierarchies. It is, however, what appears to be the least bad option for a lot of Indian trans people facing ostracism. This reflects incredibly poorly on Indian society at large.

Many trans people that join the hijra community leave it due to the abuse. The ex-hijra community is one of trans women that has been around for roughly as long as the hijra community has been.

Here's a project from former members of the hijra community that left because of the abuse they faced in it: https://aravaniartproject.com

In any case, trans people have been around for as long as people have been around.

[graveli]

Trans is a Western cultural import applied to the hijra, this isn't how they traditionally see themselves, nor wider Indian society, e.g. if we look at misogynist cultural practices such as sati, with widows immolated on their husband's funeral pyre, these never applied to hijra as they aren't considered to be women, or men. If the idea of hijra was imported back to the West and applied to transwomen here there would be an uproar.

[howinteresting]

Not everyone, but plenty of people in the community and outside of it see themselves as trans women.

The western idea of transness is better (more freedom, less suffering) so of course it is seeing adoption worldwide. I'm the exact opposite of a cultural relativist. I think it is morally good for the best cultural ideas to win.

In any case it still doesn't change the fact that something resembling trans people have been around in every single culture for a very long time. It is because transness is universal, a part of the human condition.

[jacquesm]

Having seen up close how Indian families treat children that are trans I think you may want to reconsider your stance.

[graveli]

The abduction and castration of children by hijra gangs is well documented. There's nothing that really comes close to this in Western culture.