[rapsey]

> Every time I visit family for the holidays, I see this in real-time and it reaffirms my decision to not have children. I have an incredibly comfortable lifestyle saving for retirement, traveling and buying real estate. The moment I become responsible for another human, that all goes away.

It is unfortunate that unless you have children you can never know what it is like to have children. You see the external things, the effort and the cost. For most (i.e. non egocentric/narcissist personalities) having children is the most profound and meaningful experience of their lives. A normal parent loves their children more than they ever thought it possible to love someone.

You call your life comfortable. I as a parent would call it empty and sad. What you think of people as shells of themselves, I see as people focusing on what truly matters and brings happiness instead of momentary joy.

[DonHopkins]

>I as a parent would call it empty and sad.

That's pretty judgemental of you. If your own children decide not to reproduce themselves, will you judge their own lives as empty and sad too, consider your own children hollow failures for not giving you grandchildren, and express your disappointment to them that they have failed to live up to your own expectations as a parent? Or will you love and support them for making their own decisions, like you refuse to extend to other people who decide not to become parents?

[rapsey]

Funny how you can freely call parents shells of their former selves or slaves to their children or whatever you find online. But soon as you express your opinion on people who chose not to have children you are suddenly a judgemental asshole.

[RHSeeger]

They said that many of their coworkers that had children seem like shells of their former selves. Not all of them, and not by definition.

You are saying that anyone that doesn't have children automatically empty and sad.

- One of the statements is "in the people I've seen do x, an outcome of y seems common".

- The other is "in any person that does x, y is true"

Those are not the same thing.

[DonHopkins]

Including his own children being empty and sad if they don't deliver him grandchildren. That's just terrible parenting, to be so judgemental and demeaning of your own children.

Edit:

Then address my question instead of ignoring it. Why by your own judgemental attitude would your own children be any less empty and sad than anyone else if they chose not to reproduce themselves? And how are you not being a bad judgemental parent with that attitude? Don't have kids if you're not willing to let them make their own decisions.

[rapsey]

Nice straw man you have built here.

I did not answer your question because it is absurd. There is a difference between having an opinion and forcing that opinion on others. My children are their own people and they are allowed to disagree and I will not hold it against them. Because I love them more than they can understand until they have children themselves. I however hope they will be confident and flexible in their opinions and change them if they prove a poor fit to reality and not resort to logical fallacies or grudges.

[RHSeeger]

I'm not sure "I respect your decision to have a sad and empty life" is as wonderful a parenting statement as you seem to think it is.

[DonHopkins]

You didn't answer my questions because they made my point and you don't want to follow what you said through to its logical conclusions and ultimate consequences.

It's not my questions that are absurd, it's your condescending attitude and statements, and I specifically asked you those questions to point out the absurdity of what you said, and by refusing to answer you proved my point.

Your demeaning judgements could apply just as much to the lack of value and sadness and emptiness of your own children's lives if they decide not to breed as they do against everyone else, which is my point that you're unable to acknowledge because you delusionally believe your own children are somehow magically different than everyone else in the universe, and you unfairly exempt them from your harsh degrading criticism of other people.

They're not, and your condescending attitude applies as much to your own children as to anyone else.

It's judgemental condescending parents like you who kick their kids out onto the streets because they're disappointed in them and believe they're sad and worthless for not wanting to breed when they find out they're gay or lesbian, so their kids don't trust them, are afraid to come out to them, hide their true feelings from their own parents, and often commit suicide, because they understand how harsh and judgemental their parents are, from all the condescending hateful things they say about other people all their lives.

You only judge that other people's lives are sad and empty for not breeding because they're not your children, so you have a double standard, and don't want to admit that. But kids can see through that, and know you'll ultimately judge them just as harshly too.

Part of being a good parent is being mature enough to not think and speak in such a childish nasty way, and to not be so condescending and demeaning.

[rapsey]

> You are saying that anyone that doesn't have children automatically empty and sad.

No I am saying that is what they seem to me. Just like people with children are shells of their former selves to him. You are splitting hairs and putting words in my mouth to make an obvious point. In the end you are just proving me right that one can not express any kind of negative about being childless without having people jump down their throats.

[DonHopkins]

You just don't like it when somebody points out that your own ad hominem attacks could just as well apply to your own children. You threw the first stone, without considering that you could be attacking your very own children too, and now you're mad at me for pointing that out. I'm not the one attacking your children, I'm just pointing out that you are, which is terrible parenting.

[DonHopkins]

Oh, I doubt it was sudden.

[RHSeeger]

It might be empty and sad _for you_, but that doesn't mean it is for everyone. Each person has their own things they enjoy. You sound exactly like the people telling everyone "spend your money on experiences, not things" because that's what makes _them_ happy.

There are a lot of people very happy with the choice they made to have children. There are a lot of people very unhappy with the choice they made to have children. The same things are true of people who choose not to have children.

Just because something is right for you doesn't mean it's right for everyone. And treating them condescendingly because you believe is does makes you the bad one in the conversation.