[throwaway202212]

This really sounds like a conspiracy theory. That being said, McKinsey (and presumably BCG and Bain) very much embrace their employees leaving to join their clients. It creates a good "referral" network if you will. But more than that, I don't buy it.

[kennend3]

I'm obviously not using a throwaway account like you and so i am not willing to disclose details.

But lets say that in my industry this sort of "kickback scheme" is well known.

I saw it first hand, and have had friends tell me other instances of it as well. And i am NOT singling out "McKinsey" but consultants in general.

As for McKinsey, read the book, they provide examples of this.

[exclusiv]

The throwaways are likely shills (or charitably - ignorant employees that don't wish to dive into any claims about their employer?). There are actual cases involving big four and kickbacks/bonuses and corporate sabotage.

One example in the last few years: BCG and NCR Corporation.

"It is undisputed that Mr. Benjamin, as an officer of NCR, owed NCR a fiduciary duty that includes a duty of loyalty. The Counterclaims allege sufficient facts to show that Mr. Benjamin breached that duty by entering into a secret agreement with BCG to promote and expedite his candidacy for CEO. The Counterclaims further allege sufficient facts to show that BCG worked with Mr. Benjamin to negotiate a one-sided contract, and remove and replace employees who opposed adoption of the contract, and that BCG advocated for Mr. Benjamin’s promotion to CEO in hopes that he would award BCG with a discretionary bonus." [1]

[1] https://law.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/new-yor...

[throwaway202212]

I can only obviously speak to my own experience and I did not come across anything like this. There's no love lost between me and my former employer FWIW.

[kennend3]

Previously you said it was a "conspiracy". Someone posted the results of a lawsuit.

Because of this, it is now irrefutable that this takes place and this is your response?

"I can only speak to my own experience..".. Well.. Have you considered your experience may be severely limited?

Perhaps in the future don't be so fast to pull the "conspiracy" card?

[throwaway202212]

Apologies, "in my opinion and limited experience" it sounds like a conspiracy theory.

I'm not legally literate enough to understand the court opinion you attached. Regardless, of course there will be cases of bad players in any large company - that goes without saying. But its tiresome always hearing the same "McKinsey is the root of all evil and secretly influences governments and companies".

The opinion that most engineers have of MBB is often based on conjecture as they typically have only ever hard arms length exposure to such consulting firms. As a software engineer myself, working at both startups and FAANG before McKinsey, I was of the exact same opinion about McKinsey and these types of companies. The truth is much more mundane and boring though.

[exclusiv]

> sounds like a conspiracy theory

That's the best strategy to prevent the masses from investigating further. You shouldn't label something like you did if you haven't done your research.

> legally literate enough to understand the court opinion you attached

I think you are literate enough to read and understand the key part I included in quotes for you, from the ruling which completely refutes your prior position, and attitude, with hard evidence. It's as clear as day!!!

> McKinsey is the root of all evil and secretly influences governments and companies

Well they've had a lot of bad looks, especially with their role with Purdue Pharma and OxyContin. Their former alumni was CEO of Enron which they consulted for 15 years. "But up until the very end, it was promoting Enron’s business model, especially its off-balance sheet accounting practice, and encouraging others to follow suit." They "recommended ICE save money on food served to the detainees or send the migrants to facilities in rural areas to cut back on expenditure" They agreed to pay $100M to South African government in a corruption scandal [1]

Last year, one of their private investment funds agreed to pay $18M to settle an SEC issue regarding insider information gleaned from the corporate consulting business. [2] They have a hedge fund which makes bets on the advice they sell.

Here's another one regarding McKinsey & their investment office (MIO) and Valeant Pharmaceuticals which buys out other drugmakers and jacks up prices. "Four top Valeant officials, including Mr. Pearson, were McKinsey veterans, and the firm was advising Valeant on drug prices and acquisitions." Later in the article, "a federal judge in Virginia last month reopened a coal-company bankruptcy case after learning that McKinsey had not disclosed, as required by law, that it was also among the company’s secured creditors, through MIO". Further down: "An investigation requested by the oversight board found that MIO had five direct and indirect investments in Puerto Rico’s debt while McKinsey advised the island". [3]

So you start to look at all these big corporate consulting firms and if you are being unbiased, you can see it's systemic. They wield a lot of power and influence. They get their alumni and friends placed in government and huge companies and then make deals and institute their strategies to make a ton of money.

> The truth is much more mundane and boring though.

Yes from your position it would be. You aren't the one placing CEOs, making kick back deals, getting involved with foreign governments and corruption, writing strategy for Encron, ICE or OxyContin, investing in company government debt on one side and advising on it the other. The system isn't designed for people like you to be included in that part of the business.

In my opinion, people fall into one of these buckets - pawn, shill, or informed. In an information age, isn't it remarkable that most STILL fall into the pawn category?

[1] https://www.trtworld.com/magazine/the-many-times-mckinsey-ha...

[2] https://www.nbcnews.com/business/corporations/investment-fun...

[3] New York Times - https://archive.ph/ZSDBH

[kennend3]

PS - as a former McKinsey employee.. Would it be fair to say your view is biased?

Look at your response on the "agile" comment. They feel it was "pure graft" and you defended it without knowing any details?

Now look at the other response on this thread, where someone stated they saw it first hand as well.

Are they in on the "conspiracy theory" as well, or perhaps there is truth to it?

[throwaway202212]

It's fair to say my view would be biased. But probably not in the direction you would think.

I think we need to be more critical of what it means to see things "first hand". MBB are typically operating at the executive level and the motivations between executives decisions typically don't reach the "rank and file" of the organization (forgive the wording). In my response I mentioned that the cost of engaging McKinsey is so extremely high that there will need to be some type of rational justification for bringing them in (beyond just covering my ass).

That being said, I worked on a few projects where I wasn't sure whether the cost justifies the benefits but this was largely due to incompetence or overselling - never "pure graft".

[kennend3]

> I think we need to be more critical of what it means to see things "first hand".

I think everyone needs to be more critical of "Shill" accounts such as yours.

You are fast to assume that i did not see it "first hand", slow to realize that this does take place and when provided new information (the lawsuit post) unwilling/unable to incorporate new information into your position.

What value do you feel you are adding to the conversation? You seem to be wearing your McKinsey hat "they never do anything wrong, it is all justified just not at your level"..

[throwaway202212]

By first hand I mean you're the executive paying the bill and understand the motives behind hiring a consulting firm and the incentives such a firm is working under for the client. I'm doubtful most here have that experience (I certainly never did in 20 years of industry before joining a consulting firm). Having McKinsey or BCG walking around your office and telling you what to do is not first hand experience in my opinion.

I'm trying to offer a unique opinion of a software engineer who spent a short time working in this industry. If you're not buying it then no problem.

Personally, I would never invite McKinsey or any of these companies into my own company. But then again I don't run a 100k person company.

[doctor_eval]

I saw it happen with my own eyes.