[cpursley]

You can be "civilized" and an autocracy. Certain aspects of modern China makes the West look like a backwater. Hell, even Russia has less people in prison than the US and free heath care.

Also, that phrase just reeks of imperialism, racism and superiority - just a modern version of "savages who need our one true religion". OPs argument is about democracy, not level of development and culture.

For clarity: I'm anti-autocracy

[bigDinosaur]

What aspect of China makes the West look like a 'backwater'? I literally cannot think of a single thing. That doesn't mean China has no positive aspects. The West is also not monolithic.

[DiogenesKynikos]

> What aspect of China makes the West look like a 'backwater'?

Transportation infrastructure. 5G connectivity.

[FabHK]

> What aspect of China makes the West look like a 'backwater'?

Growth, for one.

[mensetmanusman]

It’s easy to grow with such a low gdp/capita.

[cpursley]

Tell that to the nations who've been in a cycle of abject poverty for centuries.

[peoplefromibiza]

> What aspect of China makes the West look like a 'backwater'?

Compare China homicide rates to USA.

Or China incarceration rate to USA incarceration rate.

[torben-friis]

I’d argue that most of the numbers you’ll find apply to the US, not to the west. The US is pretty much known everywhere for having third world shortcomings on specific areas.

[peoplefromibiza]

I agree.

The problem is we as westerners are guilty by association.

I don't approve of the US methods, nonetheless they represent the west in most non westerner people eyes.

we all know that NATO==US even though it should be a coalition.

That's why I, as European, hope in a strong and independent EU, at least we'll make our own mistakes.

[wil421]

China has less prisoners and the fastest wait times for organ transplants.

[peoplefromibiza]

US has also many more strip clubs

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_trafficking_in_the_United_...

The United States ranks as one of the worst countries in the world for human trafficking

Despite a common and widespread misconception, human trafficking is not just a problem outside the US. It also happens here, within United States borders, and in every state.

https://deliverfund.org/the-human-trafficking-problem-in-ame...

Listen, let's have an honest discussion here.

What China does better than USA?

Less people incarcerated is good, how the prisoners are treated is another issue entirely and of course China can and should be heavily criticized for that.

But penal labor for literally cents/day or private prisons as a source of profit or the death penalty are something that the US, above all, should be able to improve on, before lecturing other countries over human rights.

Let's talk about

“Guantanamo Bay is a site of unparalleled notoriety, defined by the systematic use of torture, and other cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment against hundreds of men brought to the site and deprived of their most fundamental rights.”

This is a statement from "The Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights of the United Nations".

What have the consequences been? Nothing. Literally nothing has changed!

People have been detained there for years, most of them without any charges, denied of the right to a due process, only because they were Muslims.

39 of those men are still kept captive there as of today, 20 years later, 27 of them have never been charged with any crime, the others have been cleared for transfer years ago, but are still there.

Imagine if China did something like that what the US would be saying about it.

That's the moral short circuit: if it's wrong it must be wrong for everybody, especially for those claiming to hold in high regards human rights, not only if China or Russia do it.

[amelius]

The combination of those two things make it sound very suspicious ...

[philwelch]

Also, China’s incarceration rates don’t count people who have been welded into their apartments under the zero-COVID policy.

[peoplefromibiza]

> Also, China’s incarceration rates don’t count people who have been welded into their apartments under the zero-COVID policy

Do you know any Country that counts that?

For example, does the US count the penal labor as labor camps?

Potato potato.

[lpcvoid]

I have not done any research on this and am genuinely interested - why can I trust the numbers the CCP releases on incarceration rate?

[JZM8yKnRvGv]

According to stats there are 1.3 million people incarcerated in China.

If incarceration rates in China were similar to those in USA it should be 10.3 million people. It would be pretty hard to hide them.

USA are by far the number one country in the World for jail population and for incarceration rates, worse even than Putin's Russia.

They would love to share the top step of the podium with someone else if they could prove it.

The most logical explanation is that they can't, because the numbers are probably not true, but not too far from the truth.

[pistoriusp]

Does this include the 12.8 million Uyghurs in China?

[peoplefromibiza]

Some source to backup this number? Are they actually in prison?

IMO the fact that we should be skeptic about China official stats means that we should also refrain from throwing random numbers at the wall hoping it will make China look bad.

BTW, two wrongs don't make a right, it's not about what they do wrong, it's about what we do better, like for example, is Guantanamo acceptable in a western democracy?

[otikik]

Probably those are not on the “stats”

[DiogenesKynikos]

This is what a walk down the street in Urumqi looks like: [0].

It's possible to talk about Xinjiang without going over into hyperbole.

0. https://youtu.be/_OMaUIC4Om8

[alex_smart]

Do you seriously believe that all 12.8 million Uyghurs in China are literally imprisoned?